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thanks for the heads-up.  I am not the owner of Hawk nor the breeder of this dog.  Kandi is the owner of Hawk, but not the breeder of this dog - apparently the breeder of the dog is the person advertising him on Petfinder - very surprising to see him there - but maybe she is just trying to find him a good home?  The classifieds section of Petfinder is there for private individuals looking to place their own dogs.  I wouldnt' personally put one of my dogs there but have put some of my rescue dogs there.   Apparently the owner is the breeder and they are just trying to find a good home for him.  Don't know why Petfinder would be necessary, seems like a really nice dog.

 

molly

The best lists on this site were about what to look for in a breeder, not just a listing of breeders for a certain style or line.

That is because you don't know the credibility of those who are adding to the list. Some will do it as a selling tool and how will you know?

You can spend the next couple of months going through this link for lists:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.search?f=&s=How+to+find+a+good+breeder

I truly find it hard in picking a show puppy at such a young age. Pups change so much when young.Find a good breeder and get to know them before sending any money.I get my dogs from Viernheimi Kennels in Hungary. Laszlo is a judge and knows his dogs.

Mac

Where is your friend located? It is best to find a good breeder within your locality if at all possible. Let us know and perhaps there will be appropriate breeders to recommend.

The extent of my experiences with dutch shepherds is:  great workers, but kind of off the wall.  This may or may not just be the few that I've personally met. 
For malinois:  good workers, very owner oriented, and most are good in the home. 

Cattle Dogs:  I agree that they can have stubborn streaks, they can sometimes be aggressive towards the same sex as well, but so can any breed. 
Of the cattle dogs I've owned they've all been stubborn, but usually only about wanting to play or 'work' more.  They're like energizer bunnies I swear.  They just keep going and going.  They've been very driven, but with the correct outlet's they are great.  From my experience, they really want to please their owners.  They just need to be taught obedience and that you are boss.  My current one will do literally anything I ask her to.  So far though, she is the most willing to please dogs I've owned.  She's amazing in the house; the only one of my dogs I actually trust being left out of a kennel or offleash and she's only two years old.  Also, she absolutly LOVES my cats, although I think that might just be a personal quirk of hers. 
I truly think that, just like any breed, if you get the right one and do the correct training and bonding that it will be a great dog, especially for the purposes you want (hiking/camping/companion).  The most sound advice I can give you for any breed is to find a good breeder, let them know what you want and don't want, and trust their judgement as to which puppy/dog would be best suited towards you.  I hope this helped.   

If I were you I wouldn't waste the additional cost on importing a puppy from Germany.  There are many good breeders here in the US.  The Germans are notorious for jacking up their costs when an American is shopping.  Even the dog friends that I know that routinely buy dogs from Germany never call directly - they have to call their German friends to make the call to the seller to avoid getting an inflated price.

If you want to find a good puppy, then you need to find a good BREEDER - someone who trains and competes at a high level.  A good breeder will help you find the right pup.  I wouldn't waste my time with anyone who "guarantees" they can get you a pup that will take you to the Nationals - that kind of inflated promise is worthless and speaks of someone trying a wee bit to hard to "sell" their puppies.

Also, if you want to go to the Nationals, chances are you wil end up with a working line dog.  Very few showline dogs compete at the National level and none make the podium. 

Once you have your puppy you will absolutely need a good Schutzhund CLUB to work with you and help you learn to work as a team. 

Yvette

Sounds like someone who trying to get on the right path but not quite there yet... I do like how choosy they are since they are basically begging for a girlfriend on craigslist, of all places.  I hope they find a good breeder to mentor them.

By the way, I bet my show dog bites harder. 

One of the problems I see is that typically, people who own the great competition dogs are not really 'breeders.' (They are sport competitors) Breeding one tough dog to another tough dog without knowlege of history of bloodlines, how characteristics are brought forth, etc.. really intense knowlege of breeding, makes it difficult to produce a dog here for competition that would be as good as one bought overseas where the art of breeding is more common. Some people do title their own show line dogs, but again, many of the show competitors are not trainers... they just like to win in a breed show. Perhaps if that brought more recognition, more would be inclined to do their own titles. It is hard to find one who has knowlege to be good at so many things, a good breeder, a good trainer, a top competitor... It is also more common to find a good V - KKL1 working dog in Europe as it is a good working show dog. I think more people in Europe take ALL the requirements of the standard into account in breeding programs, where as here in the USA, people seem to either breed "working" dogs (with an emphasis on competition ability) or "show" dogs (with an overt emphasis on structure.) Too bad more people are not looking for a dog that meets all aspects of the standard for the GSD.

TOS violation. edited by GSD.

YES WHAT SABLE SAID NEVER EVER EVER BUY A DOG OFF HERE ALWAYS STICK WITH REPUTABLE WELL KNOWN BREEDERS FIND AT LEAST 15 ONLINE CUSTOMERS U CAN CHAT WITH BEFORE U MAKE A CHOICE IF  u do buy a dog off here only buy one from a chatter that is an established breeder that is well known with a web site right on this forum you will find a handfull of very good trustworthy breeders i would buy dog from any day!

find a breeder who is well liked on a forum and has been chatting on a forum for a long long time

a trust worthy person will have connections to to other trust worhty people and will often have dogs from well known respected breeders themselves


find a breeder that is respected by a lot of people

NEVER BUY  A dog from just a person unless you can fly down there and analize and loook at the dog yourself even then u run the risk of the dog having health issues a good respected breeder wont let u suffer with a dog they sold u that has health issues if they did that they lose their respect.

I followed all the rules above and so far have gotten the dog which was exactly what i have asked for

There are many types of dog to want...I mean you want a dog that will do what you want but one that keeps you interested in the work...but not one that's not got the correct drives to make training fun...
Genetics are one thing and a must but Training and Raising a dog with your demands is another...
If you'd get a dog that I like it might not be a good fit for you...It might just be a pain in the butt...but it's what I like and demand...
Are you thinking about getting a puppy or young adult or an adult...Each has their positives and negatives...Not everyone has the ability and knowledge to raise a puppy for the work and to be able to live with them as well...
Let me know more about what you're demands and experience is and I'd try to help you find a good breeder...
You're welcome to PM me if you'd like...

~Bob~

Vikram, why don't you buy an American bred dog from working lines? There are plenty of good GSD's being bred in this country, you don't need to import one. It's a myth. There are a number of working line people on this board who would help you out I think. Ask Kougar and Charlie Ivory to help you find a good breeder in your area. Not only can you go and see the breeder's dogs, the way they are kept and cared for, and assess their temperaments before you decide to buy one, you can also find a breeder who will help you with the training phase and breeding advice for the future. Training a GSD to a title is not something you can do on your own without support. Even the best breeder in Germany can only offer limited support.

Being alpha does not mean it's a good Schutzhund prospect. Yes, you can see drive at 8 weeks (earlier in fact). 

I'd recommend you find a good breeder who an help you select a good prospect. A breeder who is active in Schutzhund can help you determine that. 

I couldn't agree more with your wise words of wisdom. Taking the time to find a good breeder is time very well spent.

Jersey Girl, I just want to add to what others have said here. Even the best breeders who do everything possible to ensure they produce well-bred, healthy, well-balanced, talented, athletic, intelligent pups will sometimes produce pups with defects. That is just life-nothing is perfect. BUT, a good breeder will try to make things right when this happens.

Based on your story, your breeder was clearly a "bad breeder" from start to finish. She made false claims about herself and her dogs, plus she turned the other way and shifted blame when one of her pups had a defect.  I feel really bad for you and what happened to your dog.  I hope that you are able to find a good breeder and that your next pup will be very healthy and bring you much happiness.

Find the local clubs and start going now.  You'll get to see how dogs are worked and if the club fits you.  Sometimes you will visit two or three clubs to find the right one.  Once you find the right club for you, you can talk with the members and see who they recommend as a breeder.  Where did they get their dogs?  There may be a good breeder that's a member.

There are quite a few good working line breeders here.  Whatever club you find could well be recommending one.

Heartily agree with all that MVF has said - exceedingly good advice.

One thing I would add is that have you ever thought of buying an adolescent dog rather than a pup? Yes, I know you miss out on the early playful stages of puppyhood but with an older dog you see pretty much the finished article.

I couldn't comment regarding working line breeders but show line breeders will often have retained a pup for show that didn't turn out as well as expected that the breeder would be willing to release. These faults would be of importance in the ring e.g. too high at the withers, too long back etc but these are minor when it comes to a lifelong companion.

These aren't always adverstised and by applying the same rules MVF has spelled out for finding a breeder you can ask if they have any available. Even if they don't they might know someone who does.

As the dog is older it probably already has hips/elbow certified and any good breeder will have built a relationship with the dog and will probably only want to realease it to a good pet home. It's possible to get a very well bred dog for not much more than the price of a pup.

Remember good breeders want to find good owners just as much as owners want to find good breeders. Patience & happy hunting.

AandA

 One thing from the original post that worries me is the mention of three colour's.  GSDs traditionally come in Black and Gold or Sable.  Yes there are black's and white, blue's and livers, but I have found that people who breed for colour often lose sight of the need for construction Temperament, health and fit for purpose.

A dog however is more than a topline, leg length or colour.  I would recommend finding a breeder before there are puppies, getting to know them and their dogs, make sure that the health screening is in place and that you like the attitude and temperament  of the potential parents before looking for the puppy.

Also out there there are variations within breedings, not all germanic lines have extensive ski slope backs (as perceived by joe public) and not all English are coffee table's with a leg at each corner. 

Another way to find a good breeder is when you are out and you see a dog you like, ask the owner where you got it from, and can they recommend the breeder, and what kind of rapport they got with them.

Remember many good breeders have waiting lists, so find a good one and get in line!

Don't know anyone in Southern California but am more relaxed about shipping a puppy from wherever you find a good breeder you trust and who has what you are looking for in a dog. The new owner of Peik has a litter due November 22nd and I believe is in Georgia. Her name is Rhonda Lakeman. Von Hirschberg Kennels has a nice male that is about 5 1/2 months old-he is in Texas. His name is Jerzy and answers to "Old Shatterhand' on PDB. Schatz-tal Kennels, in my experience can be trusted. These are all small breeders so, most importantly, your pup will start out its life getting lots of love.



I have a litter a week old today with excellent breeding. They are all longcoat to longcoat as that is what I want to be breeding. 5 males and 3 females. They are fat and noisy. Both parents are highly pigmented red and black and large. They will be ready to go to their forever homes New Years 2016. I don't think proximity should be as big of an issue as quality , finding and trusting reputable people and your pup getting a loving start.. I use to cring at shipping but am okay with it now. good luck to you-Southern Cal has never been real familiar to me

LBS,

You ask some good questions.  When you do find a good breeder, if you explain to him/her exactly what kind of dog you want, and for what purpose, then you SHOULD get steered to the right pup in the litter for you.  Not every litter of SchH "prospects" is packed full of ball crazy little ankle biters.  Surely it's every breeder's dream to have every puppy in every litter have consistent temperament and suited for SchH, but that's just not realistic.  The medium-drive dog that is confident and out-going, but doesn't show the same inclination to latch on to a puppy tug like an alligator could be the dream dog for you.

As far as "working" vs "show" lines you could find the temperament you want in either camp, but you are likely to pay more for a show line dog.  Some of the show breeders are asking (and getting) $3,500 for an 8-week puppy.  If you don't have aspirations to show the dog in SV-style conformation shows, you could take home a medium-drive pup from working lines for much less. 

Do you have an OB club that you train with?  Is there a SchH club nearby to you?  Visit the clubs and talk with the people there, find out who they go to for their puppies. 

Oh yeah, and don't forget that written guarantee!  Best wishes!

Yvette

Some of Ibrahim's picks are valid; others completely misrepresent themselves.  As many have said here recently, believe half of what you see and none of what you hear from people on this forum.  Having said that, I have personal experience with one of Ibrahim's pics as Robin and Carlos have given me guidance, supported me and handled my dogs in major shows on more than one occasion...crhuerta/Huerta Hof is a kennel/breeder I can absolutely endorse...great people with solid dogs and and excellent team if you're looking for a high quality show line dog (and maybe even some solid working lines in the near future ).

This forum might have been a good resource for finding a good breeder when it started but now, not so much so.  Most of the top ten breeders won't be posting here because they're too busy working their dogs to have time to post and are tired of arguing with pet people  over things that the latter only know from what they've read somewhere on the internet rather than from any real experience.  If you want to find a good breeder, you should find a club near you with people you like, watch their dogs work and decide what you like and don't like about them (and what you think you can handle) ask a million questions, then roll the dice and ask to buy a puppy from a breeding you think is what you want.  If more novice buyers spent time at a club learning before they decided on a puppy, there would be a lot fewer surprised or disappointed puppy buyers in the German Shepherd Dog world.

Good afternoon group; I would like to begin an open dialog that will hopefully remain civil, polite, and be very informational. After having working line sport dogs for several years, I have recently been toying with the idea of purchasing a showline bred female puppy to "play" with and learn from as well. Thus, I begin my quest for knowledge...Of all the American kennels breeding West German showlines, which are the lines that tend to produce good working ability...on a regular basis, not just one or two...I mean actually consistently producing dogs that can HONESTLY do the work of the sport in a respectable manner? I would be more interested in contacting breeders who actually work and title/show their own dogs..those would be the most credible in my eyes..I don't know how much faith I can place in the breeder who simply purchases titled dogs, (or sends dogs for titling and showing etc). I would like to find a real "hands on" breeder, one who knows which end of the leash goes where, one who gets out and tracks the dog(s), does obedience, bitework etc. Once I find that breeder, I believe I will have a good place to start searching for a puppy. Now, with that in mind, perhaps this breeder does not own the male, or in fact has not titled ALL the females they own etc..but I would like to find a breeder who HAS been out on the field, knows what it takes to make it to SchH3, FH etc.. With that all said, please feel free to post your recommendations for such breeders here, preferably with contact information so that I may contact them at my own leisure. I would post my email, but I don't want 500 emails with offers of dogs for sale ;) So, which lines are bringing good solid temperment and nerve to the table as well as HEALTH, and of course, working ability? Which breeders are out there shedding blood, sweat and tears with the rest of the working crowds? Location of the breeder within in the USA is not an issue, I have no problem flying out to meet the breeder and watch them work hands on.. I decided to post this request here, I have tried doing some online searching, but mostly come up with dead ends...just kennels full of titled dogs being bred, and nothing appears to be actually worked and trained by the breeder....I do know there ARE showlines out there that CAN in fact put in an honest days work and are consistently producing the same...so lets hear who they are! Please don't start attacks, there are just as many "working line breeders" that also fall in this category as well. It is certainly a major trend in our country...buy titled dogs, POW, instant "breeder". This is of course a topic all in it's own..not one I wish to address at this time, or in this thread.

Every quality breeder looks at not only the parents, but also the lineage. AKC is NOT a quality control organization. They register litters based on the puppies parents being registered and the papers being signed in the right place and the appropriate fee paid. They are only the absolute minimum and first step. Health testing on the sire and dam (at an absolute minimum), should be done - not relying on what another breeder has done on the parents. Go to OFA.org and input the AKC numbers of the parents and see what has been done. Surprisingly some dogs do test and are found to be bad. Many other's simply do not test at all. Pregnancy is a by product of mating the right dogs. Breeding to see if the dog can get pregnant is not going to produce quality puppies.
It is so easy to find a good breeder that will HOLD YOUR HAND through all the ups and downs of raising your new family member to be a respected community member!

 

 As it has/had been pointed out to me by many of the regulars here, fair has no real meaning when it comes to money/price, only you can decide what is or isn't fair...Better to concentrate on a better bred high quality dog/breeder than anything else...You will get what you pay for as far as quality is concerned, again better to find a great breeder with quality dogs and go from there...An inexpensive pup that looks good to you could be trouble down the road, find a breeder that you are comfortable with and you trust, everything elsewill fall into place from there...

 There are good, bad and ugly here "lurk", listen and learn and then go get yourself the dog you say you want as there is a huge difference between a "top female puppy" and a "bitch"...

 I wish you the best of luck with your search I know of a few quality breeders in my area, if interested drop me an e-mail and I'll give you their names and how to get in touch with them...I am not a breeder and never will be and am not offering anything for sale, what I can offer you for free is some good advise which you can find here from lots of others as well...Becareful and good luck...

   Rob        mrarebe@netscape.net

 

 

If you are looking to buy a good German Shepherd Dog....visit clubs in your area.  All of them.  Gather enough information to meet a person of knowledge to mentor and help you.  Opinions are great...but they do not stand as knowledge.  Listen to people who have actually trained and titled dogs.  Someone who has passion for the breed.  I have mentored many people...helping them find a dog to fit them.  Guiding their raising, management, training and titling of their dog.  Find a knowledgable breeder with good references, who has produces titled dogs. A good breeder wants to get their dogs in good hands, allowing the dogs to achieve to the best of the dogs abiity. Breeding is a means to improve our dogs conformation, temperment, health and working ability. We need good dogs from good breeders in the hands of motivated owners with a knowledgable mentor.  

If internet was so great....the people with so much info would all have titled dogs laying at their feet.  Yelli vom Kassler Kreuz SchH3 is stretched out on my floor with my wonderful puppy Mayhem next to her.


Debbie Wade
 

 

I made a lady mad a month or so back..She was given my number by a vet , and she called me to ask me how to change the behaviour of her pup she bought at Canton, the big flea market in Texas...I almost choked when she told me she spent 1000.00 in vet bills because it had parvo....of course , it had parvo and a lots more.. 

I told her I knew nothing about German Shepherds sold in Canton...My advise to her was to take the pup back to the person she bought the pup from....get this...She didnt even know the name of the person that sold it to her.

She ask me why I couldnt help her... I told  her I was a German shepherd breeder not a seller of dogs by the pound!

 She didnt quite understand and I told her to take the dog back and find a good breeder., but dont call me ...Im sure the vet will hear the other side of the story.. It wasnt my vet who recommended me.

 

You already got some good advice.  Like others said a lot of it is personal preference.  For me, the first thing I look for is a breeder who titles their dogs before breeding.  For me that is a must.  Obviously hip/elbow certification is a given (must) for me as well. 

I like a breeder who is a bit smaller, where their dogs live at least part of the time in the house, someone who works their dogs in SchH (or something similar), etc... I also like breeders who keep their own puppies and work/raise/train/title them.  Sometimes with a new breeder that hasnt happened yet, but for someone who has had several litters it is nice to see them willing to keep something.  I am not a fan of the big mass producing kennels or broker situations.

All of the other health testing is nice, but most breeders do not do it all yet.  Hoping that more will start doing DM going forward!  If you find a good breeder that you like who hasnt done DM test, maybe ask?!  For $45-65 they may be willing to do it to sell a puppy :)  Even if just one parent is tested and is clear, at least you know your puppy will not be affected or develop DM.  I personally would rather see CERF than thyroid/cardiac, but again not a lot of breeders test for any of those. 

I also like a breeder who is honest (of course it is hard to tell if they really are or not), but it is nice to hear some negatives/bad things about their dogs or what they have produced!  If they are willing to tell you something bad, then I am guessing they are being more honest than someone who only tells you what you want to hear.  Along the same lines, dont assume because they are honest about something bad that they have "bad dogs".  Chances are that they are just being honest where as other breeders probably have had the same types of problems or worse but either do not keep track so do not know or are not willing to openly share.  When I hear someone who has bred several litters say they have never had ANY problems it kind of makes me wonder.  A new breeder with a couple litters, sure, he may not have had any problems yet... but when you breed enough you will come across some type of problem no matter how much you try to avoid it! 

I also like a breeder who is honest about what they see in the puppies.  Someone who isnt afraid to say that their puppy is not what you are looking for and send you to someone else... rather then just making a sale knowing it isnt what you want. 

Just a couple things I look at and consider when looking at breeders....
Valerie

Carlin you are on the rite track i found myself in the same situation a few years ago.  I did the rite thing and took my time and it was hard to do believe me.  Sounds to me like you need to figure out what line in general you like the best you will be able to find a good ppd that will put its life on the line for you and your family in all the lines.  The main thing is temperament temperament temperament even though we live in rural settings the liability thing still is there.  My girl reminded me of that today with a UPS guy that was probably scared of dogs anyway.  But thats were the temperament and smarts come in to play she knew  something was off with the guy but she also knew the situation didn't call for a full on attack.  Thats the main thing in a ppd the ability to make a decision and your training will help alot with that.  But you do need to find a good breeder who has two breeding dogs that fit what you want they are out there in all the lines.  If you don't want to spend alot of time looking you could go with one of the larger breeders you mentioned.  I think if you take your time like you have been you will find the rite dog.  I all ways say go see the dogs yourself before buying you had gsd all your life you have done your homework you know what to look for you will  be fine.  Its better to travel a little further that get stuck with a dud that you were told was a champ when your family is at stake.  And i have to say bonding is the biggest thing with a dog you want to put its life on the line for you.  They have to know you would do the same for them but thats one of the many great things about the gsd we all love they will gladly give up their lives for the pack.

Thank you! For the Treue Herz recommendation! It is incredibly hard to find a good breeder who has great dogs AND who is not overbreeding them! I am starting to feel awful for the females who have several litters a year and suffer physically for it, especially if the breeder doesn't plan on keeping them for the long term! I really want to find that person who has amazing WGSL dogs and loves his or hers and treats them well!

Even a working kennel can have a pet quality puppy for you.
The thing is:you need to find a GOOD breeder who recognizes your needs. From my past litter. 3 dogs are working, 2 are pets in active families. I have one asistend dog on my list, one police prospect, couple schutz dogs. Not every puppy from a litter is going to be a WUSV caliber dog.
I would not go searching in American lines. I rather reconsider, find a breeder who will listen to you and I am positive that you will find a pet quality working line GSD. If a breeder tells you that EVERY single puppy from a litter is going to be the ultimate protection dog... that is just an illusion or a wish.
Good luck searching for a puppy.
Have you considered a young washed out dog? maybe the dog did not meet the needs for some type of work, not the cleanest hips and so on.. fantastic animals just not good for breeding and for work they were chosen for. I am just throwing ideas out there.
Pack

I do agree a male would probably be your best bet.  Unfortunately some GSDs can show same sex aggression.  If your female is already having aggression issues and your male is friendly with other dogs - a male puppy would be a better choice for you IMO. 

As for working lines with medium drive - yes they do exist!  If you find a good breeder with good dogs/lines, each puppy in the litter will be different.  Some in the litter may be more laid back and less drivey than the other pups.  And of course each individual dog/line is also different.  Some lines are known for producing over the top drives, while others are more middle of the road.  I would explain in detail what you are looking for to the breeder, what your concerns are, what traits are important to you, etc... and if it is a good breeder, they will be honest with you about what they have and if it is a good match or not. 

I think if you are planning to socialize the puppy, properly raise him, train and compete in obedience, a working line pup would be a great match for you.  Working line dogs can also make excellent pets/companions!  My dogs are all house pets first and foremost, living with my family (which includes my 2 1/2 year old daughter).... even really high drive dogs should still be able to live in the house if they have the correct nerves and temperament. 

I think that you need to look more for the temperament and nerves that would suit your house rather then drive level. 

Good luck on your search, it is nice to see people who are doing it right - taking the time to research and find the right breeder!
Valerie

After attending my first NASS this past weekend and paying a lot of attention to the entries and where they were bred, I can honestly say, IMO, many of the dogs bred on this side of the ocean are every bit as good as those from Europe. I don't want to mention any specific kennels, but if you look at the show results on the Mittelwest website, you can easily see which Am bred dogs placed well. A high placing is not a guarantee of a great dog, but it does give a good indication of what a specific kennel is producing. You might even be lucky enough to find a good Am breeder within driving distance. Not saying I'd never import a dog, I might if I had a ton and a half of references from very happy buyers. I'm just suggesting that you should be able to find a good one in this country if you do your homework and demonstrate an honest interest in wanting to do it the right way. No good breeder wants his or her best dogs going to someone who is only going to play around at being a breeder. The dedication needed to do right by this breed does not come cheaply or easily. Good luck............

Azsep6, I would like to put you straight. I know that when choosing a living creature there are no guarantees on anything, but when you start getting problems one would assume perhaps that the breeder may be slightly concerned and may offer some advice on how to help. We lived with the dog as a much loved family pet, but it was really difficult to live with so many temperment problems. I m sure a lot of people would have pushed her onto rescue but we were too fond of her either way. The breeder said there was no quesion of any money back and that he would never have her back, not that I wanted that anyway. She had hip dysplasia from the age of 12 mths, and became so crippled it was heartbreaking to see. She had a lifetime of painkillers for that condition and then got bone cancer and had to be put to sleep, which we did on the vets advice. Just to let you know that we had the vet out to our house so she wouldnt get upset, and she died on her favourite bed with us holding her til the end, so I a not a bad person, just very upset about the callousness of some breeders, as not once did he care about any of her problems, no wonder he is now living very nicely in South America, it makes me so upset. I did not even know that you bred dogs and you may well be a decent breeder, I am not trying to demonize this breeder, but he is well known on this forum I believe! Its just hard for me to find a good breeder and I m bound to be a bit wary after this experienceLissa

Hi Dawn,

I think breeders in europe and I will say especially in germany are very honest. I've talked to breeders from germany and the way the laws are set up there is pretty strict. I mean you have to go through a lot of things to be able to breed your dogs. They have to go through numerous things with their dogs and it is hard work. They won't let you just breed like they do in america. I respect them for that and with having such strict laws and rules it is easier to find a good breeder because I highly doubt random people who just want to make money want to go through all those things just to breed dogs and make money. I mean that is my opinion and I think german breeders are pretty straight forward and very nice. I've never encountered a rude breeder from there and they will talk with you a long time and explain everything you want to know or have concerns with. The one thing I really do not like is the shipping - You waste a decent amount of money just for shipping and getting the dog here from over seas.

My advice to you is adopt a mature mal from the mal rescue who has been temperment tested and is proven to be good with kids, dogs, cats ect. Or be VERY selective when buying a puppy.
To answer your question, yes a mal can be a housepet, good with animals and family. But remember certain traits (like the high drive) is something that does not come out fully till a mal is a bit older than your typical 8 week old puppy and depending on the dog there may be little to nothing you can do to discourage behaviors that come with this (like chasing cats). I reccomend your find a good breeder, probably breeding show line not working line Mals and tell them you are looking for a calmer mal who can be a house dog. A good breeder should be able to pair you up with a dog you can handle. Or like i said before contact the AMBC Rescue they do a great job matching dogs up with what owners are looking for and are a great resource to any of your questions. If you are on Facebook they have a very active FB page.

Best of luck. I hope this helped a bit.

It really sucks that this person was so dishonest to you. There is no other word for it. He hoped that you would "fall in love" and take his damaged goods off his hands. 

Sounds like the kind of breeder I loath: wouldn't cull if there is a chance he can get a buck off the pup; never mind the issues for the pup or the owner.

Look elsewhere, I'm sure you will find a good breeder who will be honest with you.  I'm so sorry for your experience! 

Hi Storm,  I just wanted to mention (as I am a puppy buyer like yourself)  price of a dog does not determine its quality, not at all.  So, find a good breeder that is honest and that you can trust, look at the parents, if you like what you see, ask about the temperament, better yet, go and see the dog work before you make your decision.

All, well not all, but many breeders say their dogs are the best and put a fancy price tag on it.

I've also found that a Schutzhund title does not mean it is the end all or be all either, so shop wisely.

All the best in finding a great GSD.

:)

I don't get it, why not a working line for a novice if the novice likes a working line? People should get experience from dogs they don't like before getting a proper GSD?

To the OP, it finally boils down to the pup you get. No reputable sports or protection dog breeder is likely to pair you with one of their top prospects. Those dogs will go to homes where they will be properly utilised, and the best will be kept by the breeders themselves.

All you will get is a pet quality puppy.

So, find a good breeder, tell him your requirement, and see if they can provide you one.

If you're a keen learner, the dog will teach you everything hopefully in the next 12+ years.

kred
Be very picky. The DDR fad is not as hot as it once was, but,
there are still loads of those churning out 'DDR type' puppies
and dogs that are breeding solely for color & head size.
Since you are in IN and like the looks of the DDR type dog,
I'd recommend you make a trip to see Bill Kulla and his dogs
at   http://www.kulladogs.com/index.html

He has some very nice males that are producing size, bone, 
substance, deep color, and above all else, solid nerve and 
temperment with good overall health. Those last three things 
are the most important when it comes to selecting another
dog to add to your family. Especially when there is children
involved. Find a good breeder first, perhaps open up your 
criteria a little in regards to the 'DDR' type and work with the
breeder who will help you every step of the way. Try to find a
breeder that works, trains, titles and health checks their dogs,
has dogs from their own previous breedings that they are moving
forward with in their program as well. Those types of breeders
can tell you all the good and bad, and will be able to show you
an example of what they strive to produce.

And like Keith said, above all else, Good Luck!

I don't know, but it just seems to me from reading postings on this site that you can do all the research in the world to find a good breeder, but in the end, you can still end up with a dog that has problems. There are people that buy the shepherd puppy from the neighbour and have their dog 14 years without a problem, or there are people on here that spend thousands on a pedigree whose dogs have problems. I think you narrow your chances by doing your research.

From all that I have learned on here and from other sites and from my own experience, once you get your puppy home, the research shouldn't end. How to feed, what to feed, when to feed, how to excersize, when to exercize, how to play, what to play etc... all play a role in the development of the puppy.


I have learned so much from this site.  I wanted to say thank you to all of you whose input over the past while has been invaluable for Maya's development and well being.  

Bavarian Wagon,
I was thinking the same as GSDPACK and susie and just read their comments.Yes it is refreshing to read your comments on this subject.
As far as breeders are concerned,anybody can say anything on the internet,claim anything.Having tested a few dogs for our police force from such types,very few can deliver the quality they claim to be able to produce.
When you can find a good breeder of true working types hang on to them.If they have worked dogs in any serious fashion they can develop an eye for what you need,otherwise their claims have little value.

Mike

I completely agree with you about the dog making the pedigree.  However, if you have someones "pets" being bred (and I know a lot of "breeders" do this) then who knows what you're getting.  The likelyhood of getting a good dog comes with the same territory of a good pedigree. 

I have gone out to the trainers fields many times in my area to watch them work their dogs and I will not go to any schutzhund clubs anymore.  They are too political and far too competitive (the ones in my area anyway) in my opinion.  By being too competitive, I mean that they are not willing to help someone with their dogs training/issues because they want their own dogs to surpass the other person and I have seen this first hand.  Not someone I would want to recommend a breeder to me!   They are huddled around in groups like a bunch of highschool girls in "clicks" because they think their dogs are better than the other "clicks" dogs.

It's getting harder and harder to find a good breeder recommended by someone because nobody wants to throw out any kennel names.  I would just like a few names that someone had experience with that I can contact and take it from there to see if they have a dog that fits what I'm looking for.  When you say "what's "good" to one person,may be junk in someone elses opinion" is very true, but it works the opposite way also meaning that I may think that they are good as well!

Cut your losses, take 50% refund. You will regret going with a replacement. Dogs are for life, as are crappy dogs. Find a good breeder. Some of the anrebri dogs are known to be weak, which may not be the only issue you run into.

Their are lines that are better than others, but remember that while health/hip may be guaranteed by the breeder, not every dog is going to be 100% healthy. Yes, some lines are proven to be better than others, but there's always a chance where a puppy can have a condition or defeat. It could something simple yet annoying such as floppy ears that never stand, or it can be something more serious where the dog can't live their life enjoyable or without pain. If you're looking to get a dog from a breeder, look into past puppies they have produce, both the young ones and the older ones. Just because a breeder sells a good looking healthy pup, does not mean when they hit 3 years old the don't have a million problems. Ask for references, some breeders have previous buyers on their site, read recommendations but also ask some buyers in person/email/phone if you're able to. If you adopt a dog, you may still have the option of seeing what lines they are from, but not always. Although you may not be able to get a "history report" on the dog or puppy and find out their info, they are usually vetted prior to going into adoptive homes and you will be told (hopefully) if the dog has an pre-existing issues or not.

I actually live in Westchester County, and I too was hoping for a breeder near me. I know someone who I'm not sure still breeds GSDs that sold his pups for $1500. I can find out and will repost if he does. I know you're searching for a breeder near Hudson Valley,  but if you're not willing to travel far, shipping is usually an option if you are interested. Last year I was supposed to pick up my pup from TN (it was too hot for the airlines to ship him without a person with him), but the day before I was supposed to leave my parents had told me they changed their mind I couldn't have him, so I'm still dogless. But anyway, you may find a good breeder you like further than what you hope for. Near or far, I wish you luck on finding your pup!

Bob-O,

just like here in the U.S., the SV will not and can not get involved in any business transactions between two parties. That is what buying a dog or a puppy is in the court of law, in any democratic country. It is up to the individual to use common sense when to make a purchase, online or on the telephone (long distance).  In the case of the SV (or any other breed organization in Germany), they only get invovled when their own regulations were violated, i.e. a breeder bred more than the alloted amount of litters, a male was used too many times as stud, breeding notifications were sent out too late etc. etc.. These are the most common violations and the SV is very strict about that.

As to guarantees: Breeders in Germany generally do not give them, they don't have to. It is covered by German Comsumer Protection Law. Now, if somebody in the U.S. were to buy a puppy from Germany and it turned out to be dysplastic, a breeder in Germany would only be required to replace it if the owner could prove that the breeder used defective parents to begin with. Since the SV has a screening system in place, that is pretty much a doomed outcome. But in Germany, a puppy can be returned for several months (would have to look up the exact amount) for any kind of prolonged illness, also covered in the German Consumer Protection Law. What factors in, of course would be the immense amount of money somebody had to spent to take a breeder to court in Germany, that too is a doomed outcome. In addition, it would also not be worth shipping a puppy back to receive a replacement. Therefore, it is ever important to find a good breeder who would be generous enough without going through the "proper channels".

In addition, breeders in Germany do not like to give out a contract. Why? As soon as they have a written contract which appears like a "generalized form", they would be considered a commercial establishment, even if they only breed one or two litters a year. And "Hell have no Fury" when the German equivilent to the U.S. IRS (Finanzamt) is unleashed. As a matter of fact, the IRS is a "pussy cat" compared to the German "Finanzamt". A lot of these big breeders in Germany can tell you stories of midnight raids, that they were not even allowed to change clothes or to use the bathroom by themselves.

As to buying a dog here vs. overseas, there are honest and dishonest people anywhere. Consumers with common sense do not rush into matters and try to establish relationships, learn everything where is to learn, and if need be enlist the help with somebody knowledgable. That is what my husband and I did many years ago in Germany. The funny thing is that the help came from somebody we got to know through my husband's work (which was completely American) and not from anybody in Germany, even though I am from Germany and had just moved to the U.S. not long before.

Chris

 

I live in the Dordogne in France, and wondered who on the forum was based down here - am interested in purchasing a puppy and need to find a good breeder.

Thanks everbody for all the input and information. I really appreciate it. I also learned few things too reading all your posts. I am just trying to gather as much information and help as possible so when I do pick a puppy it'll be a good choice and the choice I was most comfortable with. I indeed have talked to breeders and I just did not feel comfortable either with their jacked up price, or their dogs and then sometimes I google their kennel and there is a lot of bad experiences that people have with them so I crossed them out right off the bat.

I live in Pennsylvania and I just realized Mrs. Strohl is from here too! She seems like a very knowledgable respectful breeder with a good reputation. I can tell you this though you won't find many breeders in PA like her. There is so many puppy mills and people breeding in their backyard and just mass producing puppies without checking the health or the temperament. It is terrible here because you hear so many bad things about Pennsylvania and puppy mills.

I talked to a kennel which is not from Pennsylvania and I wanted to know her goals, and what she looks in when she breeds dogs and their health. I also told with all due respect if I can ask the price of her puppies because the recession is pretty bad in some parts and I wanted to see if it will be around my budget. She told me it is 2,000USD and that the recession does not effect the dog price. I understand that but she did not have to come off like that towards me and I could smell a attitude so I was polite and said thank you for her help and time and information and that was it.

I just think some prices are ridiculous for puppies. I could understand if it was a titled young adult or a adult and it was good for breeding and had excellent scores but puppies?

I search day and night and search for information about the kennel and just try to find a good breeder with a fair price and that has a good reputation. But I sometimes can't tell it apart because it sometimes they sound shady and do not present with any kind of information. They do not give a contract, they do not ask me what kind of puppy I want or what I am looking for and if the puppy would fit my lifestyle. They just tell me the price and just want to sell me the dog. I do not want a puppy that'll get sick or has been bred wrong and then will be plagued with health issues and problems down the line! God forbid because once I have a dog I really bond with them and it is so hard to get rid of and I could nevr do that but I want my dog to have the most healthiest, happiest, and most comfortable life there is without any problems.

Thank you everybody for your input and information again! respect!

GSDnKids,
I've known dogs who were intense but not sharp, I even owned one.  So it is possible to have the drive and intensity without the sharpness.  However intense dogs do tend to have some alpha dominance and/or good defense drive.  My intense girl was dominant towards other dogs but a real love bug with people, particularly children.  Part of that is in socialization, she was extremely well socialized.  I have a friend who owns several working line male GSDs, he has 3 who I would consider intense, one of whom is dominant towards other males.  These 3 are my friend's best watch dogs of his property, the one who I consider has the best intensity also has the highest defense drive, but he is very social with other dogs and not dominant aggressive. 

It looks like your male is most closely linebred on Crok (Mink is his sire) I'm not personally familiar with Crok and his lines but other folks here are.  If you look at the reverse linebreeding of Crok you will find many other dogs who were linebred on Crok just like your dog.  No gaurantee you'll find a dog just like your boy, but there is a better chance.   I would start by looking at dogs who are reverse linebred on your boy, look for kennel names that have a lot of this and who hopefully still have some Crok lines they are breeding.  Perhaps you'll find a good breeder from this. 
Or I can recommend to you two breeders who are very reputable and who would try to match you with a pup whose traits you describe.  They only have working lines too. 


Reverse linebreeding on Crok
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=13877&p=reverse-linebreeding 

What is SMH?
 

My first purebred almost came from a pet shop. I was fortunate and met some members of a local kennel club who taught me about puppy mills, how to find a good breeder, etc.. They also invited me to join the club and that was my start in 45 years of continuous dog ownership.  I'm still friends with most of them. And that's all I have to say about that.

Gee Lissa,

Thought your last thread said you couldn't find a good breeder and nearly every person that attempted to help was shot down by you.  I do feel very sad for CR.  It is a shame that these things happen.....

With that being said it is nice to see you have had your epipheny that there are good breeders......perhaps even good breeders that are men.....oh my god, the thought of it......

a "sad school bully".......whatever.....since you have enough dogs, try getting some friends...or help

Blitzen wrote:
"I guess I have a different take on breeders requiring more than a check to seal a deal. I don't object to being asked about my intentions, facilities  etc when I inquire about a dog. It sends the message to me that breeder cares about the dog, is careful when planning a breeding and cares where the dog goes. I also feel as if a breeder who tries to qualify a buyer before the sale is more apt to honor a contract."

Oh, please don't assume we only buy from someone who just wants to know how/when we are sending payment. We don't mind answering questions about how the dog will be raised, for what, where the dog will live etc, we just find these 15+ page "questionaires" and "pre-qualifying" silly. Then you move on to the "contract" where if you really read it, you don't ever "own" the dog. Sales contracts demanding return of the dog if you can no longer keep said dog etc?
THAT to me is ludicrous. The breeder then expects the dog returned for free, well then? we should GET the dog for FREE too right? Turnabout is fair play.
And for that very reason, we will rarely "buy American". It is simply less hassle and much easier to find a good breeder, make contact, express our wishes for a quality pup for sport etc, send the money then go to the airport to pick up said pup. No "shuck and jive" involved, just a simple transaction. And yes, it is for a living breathing creature, but at the end of the day, law dictates it is a purchase of a "product".