Why buy American? Is this site a monument to the fact that a good screwing needs no borders? - Page 1

Many of my fellow Americans on this board speak to the horrors of wiring money to the Fatherland for a GSD. My question tonight is how is a virtual transaction with a German (or other foreign national) any different than sending off a check to an American breeder?

Specifically, this male is for sale on this site, is just over a year old, and I think we can all agree he looks pretty well put together, and apparently healthy. He doesn't have to be your type for this theoretical discussion.



They're asking 1500 Euros, or just over $2000 USD. For the sake of this discussion let's say I can get him to my doorstep for $2500. His seller says he's been shown, had obedience, and started bite work. To make it interesting, let's say that none of that is true.

For all my looking I can't seem to find a red & black with this phenotype stateside. If you want to correct me, please do with the web address of a similar dog for sale for the same price.

As far as I can tell, my (local, U.S.) options are to spend somewhere betweeen $2000-2500 for a 8-week old pup, which to my way of thinking is a greater roll of the dice. And I can know for certain that the pup hasn't been shown, done obedience, or started bite work.

In my work I transact a lot of business in Europe, and even though the dollar is weak against the Euro, there seems to be a very real understanding that their economic well-being is tied closely to our own. The point I'm trying to make is that it would not surprise me in the least if I couldn't get this dog or another quite similar landed at my local airport for under $2,000.

This board stands as a monument that you can get equally screwed by an American and have no more protection or recourse than you would have with someone from another continent. An uncollectable judgement is just documentation you got hosed. Who needs reminding?

You may say, well here you can know certain top quality breeders by their reputation. Fair enough, but then it's also true you can know certain breeders there by their reputation - they just have fewer Starbucks there.

Thoughts?

If I get screwed on this continent I don't have to swim to hunt the bastard down.

Good or bad deal's know no borders in my opinion.

The most honest and efficient people I have bought dogs from were in Germany, Belgium, and Norway.  Completely trustworthy.  But there are crooks all over the world, and I think at least 50% of ALL dog brokers are crooks, no matter where they are located.  There are honest and crooked breeders everywhere.   When in doubt and its for more money than you can afford to gamble...fly out in person to wherever the dog or dogs are located. 

I am very happy with my puppy from the breeder in Norway and all of our business dealings.  Surely MY PUP was the best male pup in the litter :-)

Veronica

Hello GFujioka

I like the way you think hahaha.  Just in what you write, I'd say you are the type of person I would buy a German Shepherd from. 

PM me okay.

Mr. Les

The reason I prefer to purchase from my own country is I have more hands on experience with what the dogs, siblings, close relatives are like  and what they produce. I can see with my own eyes and hands and make an adult decision of what  I want. . IF I were rich I could do that anywere in the world.. but  I prefer to patronize Americans... I am one.

Ignorance is universal. Intelligence, hard work and honesty are as well. I have never been dupped in dogs and dont intend to be.  Make your bed then lay in it. Mine is very compfy ..thank you very much. 

There are honest folks worldwide scrupples bare no race.

Debi

www.sherman-ranch.com

only do business with someone you can trust, either in person or by reputation.    the next question you need to ask yourself is,  do breeders/brokers from other countries really sell their best dogs?

i have a litter of 7.  i am keeeping 4, 2 girls and 2 boys.   as they grow and i find the ones i want to add to my kennel, breeding program, i will sell the others.  i have no problem telling someone that the dog i am selling them is 2nd and i am keeping the best.     thats a benefit of breeding for myself. 

to quote 2moons,  " i dont have to swim,,,,,"  love it.  im not that great of a swimmer anyway.

john

It is a fact that we can get screwed here in the States as well as abroad. I've purchased/imported 7 dogs from Europe, all were as advertised, with all vet records and registration documents intact.  On the other hand, I recently spent almost $3000 to get an imported male shipped to me from Cal.  I was guaranteed all vet records and registration paperwork, well guess what?? After 2 months of badgering/begging for these documents, I'm still empty-handed!  She did finally ship the dog after a month of being paid for him. But I told her repeatedly I only wanted him if he came with the registration papers and vet records. So now I have $3000 in a really nice "pet" dog that I won't be able to do anything with, i.e. show or breed him. She has promised to refund my money but again, I'm sitting here waiting for that to happen too!  So people can and will screw you no matter what continent you live on. 

It's an interesting thread and I thank everyone that's participated; everyone made great points.

John, with all due respect I think the mythology about whether or not breeders sell their "best' dogs is something of a red herring, simply because that calculation is so subjective and personal. If it weren't so, there would be no need for breed wardens or judges - we could simply declare our own VA dogs.

One breeder might decide to keep a male to increase front reach. If a buyer's show environment is one where reach is not a huge metric then that "best" is merely relative. One breeder might keep a highly angulated dog for the US specialty ring and consider that his "best", but any number of buyers might refuse to consider that same animal for the very reason his breeder deemed him pick.

And Debi, I appreciate your viewpoint as well. Like you, I am an American. You buy American bred dogs, but do you set aside your national pride in other areas where quality and value are elements of your buying decision? Do you have a foreign car or truck in your driveway? Is your television made in the states? Your computer - made in America?

It's worth noting that nobody sent me a link and said, here, you can buy every bit as much dog for the same money right here in the U.S.A.

And CMills, I hope you get your papers and vet records.

Finally, despite American being a true market-based economy, I think there's something cultural that prevents (some, perhaps most) American breeders from adjusting their prices to reflect the economic realities of the marketplace.

In the last 18 months over $10 trillion dollar have been excised from the country's economic system. This has impacted every single American in one way or another. Every household has a different equation, but all deal with significantly less purchasing power plain and simple.

Even Nordstrom has lowered price points throughout their stores to address the reality of the the times. As much as I want to help a countryman pay his mortgage, it's unreasonable to expect me or others to do it when those breeders attach a 'pride premium' to their dogs and refuse to see that an adjusted market price is not a negative reflection on them, but a prudent measure to keep money moving through an economy that affects us all.

We love them, want them, and need them. But dogs are a discretionary purchase.

You can get screwed anywhere. The dogs that are advertised more and easiest to buy are usually the ones where the screwing occurs. Those that buy from the internet, unknowing and green often fall victim to those that take the time to advertise and promote a substandard dog. Those that have less to sell need to spend more time convincing others to buy it. On the other hand thare are bad buyers that get a good dog and don't know it and think they are screwed. That's another discussion.

You really can get a good puppy from Germany and have it on your doorstep for less than 2,500. National winner stuff from excellent bloodlines. (By the way, these are never sold on the internet, the good prospects usually have somewhere to go) All you have to do is spend about 25,000 to take the time to develop a track record where you can successfully show and train a dog, take it from a pup and take it to the sieger show in Germany and you will have access to the better stock available if you play your cards reasonable well and develop contacts along the way. That means you get screwed a couple time as part of the learning curve as there is no road map to success. When you are able to get your top prospect.from Germany, you are on your own here. You have to get your own training, handling program and you'll screw up a couple dogs yourself in the process.

If you pay more than 2,500 for a puppy in the US you better be sure you know what you are buying. Most of those dogs are 500.00 dogs with 2,000 of advertising and hype about pedigree and parents. You can get a top prospect for a lot less. I know more than one breeder that will give one of their best to the right home. If you get a dog from a breeder that participates in showing and training, chances are you have some support along the way as they have an interest in promoting what they bred. This is now especially true with the breeders that have a male to develop. In order for a male in the US to progress through the VA ranks, he has to present a group. There are far more good puppies going to pet homes than show homes simply because good show homes are few and far between.

If you are the type that reads an advertisement about a car and buys sight unseen, if you married your wife or husband from a picture you saw, if you plan to send money to something you saw advertised and you know nothing about what you are buying and the person you are buying it from, you are setting yourself up for failure. There is no substiture for knowing what you want to buy and what it is worth before you shell out the money. Guarantees and warranties will not protect you from making an uneducated purchase.

I would NOT buy a German Shepherd from the United States, and I live here! Overpriced pups because the people have to MAKE their money back.  I know 2 people who have gotten pups from Germany, and they turned out great. I would take my chances with Germany and elsewhere, but let the buyer beware, and know and trust the people you are dealing with.

JMO!

Dawn