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the Panda Shepherd: an observation in Genetics
Thanks Ceph.
jc,
I really can't find the page now and don't want to spend more time looking, but the reason I and others say it was a spontaneuos mutation ( I Think others as well) is that on that panda website there used to be an explanation that basically said this is what the " Researchers " working on the DNA concluded, and they even found out the mutation was on gene contributed by her sire, so Frankie is not Homogeneous for this Panda trait in genotype. It was not the Panda breeder's theory, but what was told to her. Anyhow the site has changed alot. I remember being able to see Frankie's pedigree somewhere on the site and now I can't find a pedigree for any of the dogs. I think the Panda creater got so blasted and hated for deciding to go forth and create a breed from Frankie's Mutation, that she has shut of from the GSD world. I noticed a note on that site at one time saying she had lost all her friends in the GSD breed because of her decision, etc, and how her mind was made up, That she was going foward with the Panda program. ( I don't see that anymore, but I saw it years ago).
Still, if you had a line of " White GSDs" they could carry the panda trait under the white and you would never know, but Frankie came from pigmented Solid Colored dogs.
I image, that even if the "Mutation" occured on a gene contribued by the sire, if it was Spontanues, then it means he is not a carrier, but that a " Freak Spontaneous mutation occured " on that gene he contributed, but I don't know when they happen, durring gamete formation in the male? or durring developement of the embrio?
On an interesting note, I have heard that the size of white markings on many colored mammals has to do with how soon the white or unpigmented cells form durring embrionic developement, and it has been observed in Cloned White and Black calves, that they develope similar but still very unique coat patterns despite being identical sibblings, and therefore genetically identical.
What does make me sad thopugh is how the Panda breeder was treated, because it would seem to me that being that nasty to a person because of the color of the dog they chose to breed from is even worse than breeding for color in dogs.
Hey all, so I can across this, and what do you think??
Here is one very similar, it could be a sibling, at a rescue, this one also has the head colored while the frankie panda tend to have face white and no white up sides or across the back.
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Lewcinka's Johnnie Atlas Phenom
Lewcinka's Franka von Phenom
http://www.pinterest.com/molosseraptor/genetics-and-biology/
whats your take
Here is another old thread that might interest you. Frankie, a Panda shepherd was DNA tested to prove GSD purebred parentage.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.search?f=&s=frankie+panda
Panda Shepherd
IF panda is recessive, Frankie must be pp. So, if mated to a normal sire, PP:
P P
p Pp Pp
p Pp Pp
So, all pups are heterozygous for the gene, and will appear normal. No way in hell can Frankie produce a panda pup!
If the sire is heterozygous you get:
P p
p Pp pp
p Pp pp
As I explained in my post above, you get 50% carrier pups, and 50% affected. Now, the actual number of panda pups in the litter will probably NOT be 50%, that's just the statistical likelihood. Frankie could even produce all panda pups. And yes, if the panda gene is dominant, you will also get ALL panda pups. (You did state this scenario above, as happened with your black GSD's)
Now, we're assuming only 2 different genes are involved in producing panda or normal pups. This is unrealistic. There are a number of different genes involved in canine colour genetics, and geneticists still don't know everything about how they work.
As for the link you posted, may I refer you to another page on the same site:
http://www.pandashepherds.com/genetic_panda_info
With the help of the founding breeder, Ms. Cindy McCann of Ohio, we have analyzed the DNA of Panda dogs and their non-Panda littermates using modern genetic tools. We have found the following:
· The coat color pattern stems from a spontaneous mutation; it was not introduced from another breed or population.
· The novel mutation occurred in the Sire's germ line, and was then passed down to his daughter, who was the only offspring of that sire to show the distinguishing markings.
· In subsequent generations, the Panda pattern has exhibited an autosomal dominant mode of inheritance, consistent with the action of a single gene acting with full penetrance
Panda Shepherd
What I asked was this: the fact that multiple breedings producing these "panda" marked pups not related to one another are ALL also to be considered spontaneous mutations? You mean to tell me we can have multiple occurrances of the exact SAME "spontaneous" mutation? I don't think so. It would negate "spontaneous". And the pattern cropping up is too obviously predictable-its just like the border collie markings.
I, too, have college credit in college biology, with my scientific paper I wrote in 1993 on the Drosophilia being used to teach future Principles of Biology students how to write a scientific paper on a scientific matter.
Without proper testing, there's no way to figure out what exactly caused this situation.
You would have the SAME potential 50% percentage outcome whether Frankie is dominant, PP, OR if she is recessive, pp, and being bred to carrier males Pp. You can Color code things and at least have people able to follow you with Punnitts, like I've done here in the past explaining black. But also, Punnit squares only theoretically give prediction guidelines-it doesn't mean its what will in fact happen. Two dogs Pp and Pp could produce a litter of non-effected pups (2 blk/reds who are black gene carriers can have a litter of only blk/red pups, even tho there's a 25% possibility for them to indeed produce a black pup).
What exists to rule out the males she was bred to weren't carriers-because they didn't look like it? Most are dead now, so no way to find out genetically.
Take a look at Frankie's father Brain (aka "Amp) -does he look like a panda pappa? Not hardly. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/279451.html
I have SEEN panda pups via pictures taken by the breeder about 15 years BEFORE Frankie was ever produced (reputable source)-NO relation to Frankie, similar markings but no blue eyes. So yes, such marked pups HAVE existed prior to Frankie-it just wasn't broadcasted as existing prior to then. It wasn't broadcasted because the breeders were rather shocked and ashamed. And yes, German breeders would cull such.
I gave a link to a hoobly ad up there where someone has produced a litter of pups with such markings currently. The mother has it (she's blk/tan but has white on muzzle, up center of forehead, etc), the father is a normal blk/red. The litter pic looks like a GSD is nursing a litter of BORDER COLLIE pups. No relation to Frankie, either, by the way.
"Now, as for Panda pups popping up in other, unrelated litters, here is a possible scenario. When chromosomes separate during the formation of the sperm and egg cells, often they swap genetic material. The end of one chromosome would break off, and attach itself to another. Suppose that the gene for panda markings was there all along, but was never allowed expression due to other genes on the chromosome inactivating it. Then, it got switched over to another chromosome, where the gene causing it to be inactive was not present. It would now behave as a normal, autosomal dominant characteristic."
That makes some pretty good sense, and
Panda Shepherd
The ONLY way Frankie could produce her own phenotype if she were pure recessive would be to mate with a CARRIER.
Small p equals panda.
Large P equals normal
If she mates with a carrier Pp, she will produce pups that are all in appearance like the male, because normal colour dominates the panda color. However ALL pups will be carriers.
PP crossed with pp can only produce Pp (carrier)
Pp crossed with pp produces 50% carriers, 50% Panda.
I'd do a Punnett square, but I've tried that before on the database, and it just won't line up properly.
The second argument against it being recessive is how come the gene has never shown up before that we're aware of? (Such pups COULD have been secretly culled, I admit.) Liver, blue, black and white genes are ALL recessive, and although black and while shepherds are more common than livers and blues, the gene still pops up now and then. There is a remote possibility that the gene is so rare that it just hasn't happened before. However, given the amount of inbreeding in the GSD genome, I would be VERY surprised of that were the case.
So, things spontaneously mutate in various litters and produce the exact SAME results/markings multiple times in the same breed ? That's not exactly a mutation, then, is it? If it only happened once, yeah. But multiple times? So I don't agree with your second possibility, EITHER.
The passage I've quoted above doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it seems to indicate you don't understand how Frankie's mutation would be transmitted if it were a dominant gene. Once the gene mutates, it is there to stay. No additional mutations are required to keep it in the gene pool. The only criteria is for Frankie to be bred and have pups.Now, as for Panda pups popping up in other, unrelated litters, here is a possible scenario. When chromosomes separate during the formation of the sperm and egg cells, often they swap genetic material. The end of one chromosome would break off, and attach itself to another. Suppose that the gene for panda markings was there all along, but was never allowed expression due to other genes on the chromosome inactivating it. Then, it got switched over to another chromosome, where the gene causing it to be inactive was not present. It would now behave as a normal, autosomal dominant characteristic.
I think this is a far more likely scenario for Panda shepherds to pop up in normal coloured bloodlines than for the gene to be a recessive. And Frankie's progeny have proven that the gene is NOT recessive, as I've explained above!
Hey all, so I can across this, and what do you think??
This was NOT caused by the white shepherd gene, which is a MASKING gene that covers up the dog's true colour. If this is a purebred GSD, it is a result of the panda gene, which occured as a spontaneious mutation in a dog named Frankie, the offspring of two normal coloured pedigreed shepherds.
There have been other panda shepherds over the years, but Frankie became well known because his owner bred him to produce more of his kind, while other panda owners either neutered or covered up the existence of the strange-coloured pups.
Panda Shepherds
Or are you saying breeders are trying to pass off GSD mixes with panda colouration as genuine pandas?
Tt has been determined the 'original' panda, Frankie, had a mutated gene that was dominant for the panda markings. From what others on these forums have said, he is not the first GSD to have these markings. Another GSD popped up in Australia, and old timers have said they knew of litters with a panda pup, but the existence of these pups was quickly covered up. They were either culled, or given away as pets with no registration. (Owners were likely told they were mixed breeds to hide the fact they came from a purebred litter!)
You have to conclude this is either a mutation that has occurred more than once in the Shepherd gene pool, or there is a gene somewhere that codes for panda colouration, but is somehow masked (turned off) by another gene. Occasionally, something happens to the controlling gene, and the panda colour is switched on.
Panda Shepherds
Well, jletcher, I hate to burst your bubble on this exhausted subject, but the original 'Panda" GSD Frankie (the tri-color female GSD with the blue eyes) was sired by a WORKING line sch-titled import. [It pays to mention, this tri-coloring is NOT a rarity as portrayed, but just something that can happen in some GSD bloodlines; I've seen GSD pups offered on Hoobly with the EXACT same markings, even advertised as panda shepherds, but sold with breeding rights for just a few hundred bucks or so-different breeders: http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/620135.html, http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/618574.html ] The original panda GSD person is in Ohio, and its extremely rare for them to give breeding rights to their panda GSDs.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/279451.html is Frankie's sire, Brain vom Wolper Lowen SchH3. From Fado Karthago, Fero Zeuterner Himmelreich, etc.-working lines all the way. Would you expect that?
Frankie's mother was a black untitled American line/working line combination female named Madchen Alspach (spelling might be slightly off there).
Madchen's father (grandfather of Frankie) was a black male named Shadow Oaks Texas' Star( the WH is a watchdog title, not meaning he was white like some have mistaken in the past) out of lines like Azuro Vom Schloss Umpfertal, Hero Vom Farmenblick, CH Amigo Vom Land Der Berge, CH Eko-Lan's Paladen, CH Covy's Soulema Of Tucker Hill, CH Jerland Jeda Warrior, Majesty's Prince Of Kovaya CD, and others. I have an official AKC-generated pedigree on Madchen's sire Texas in my possession.
All I remember is Madchen's mother being called "Dia". I have no idea her color, but I think she
Panda Shepherd(what do you think?)
Many different breeds of dog contributed to the origins of the German Shepherd. In the early days, there were wire-coated GSD's and blue merle GSD's. It would not surprise me at ALL to find the genes for the panda-type markings hidden in the Shepherd genepool.
There is more to genetics than just dominant and recessive genes. Genes can exchange bits and pieces with each other. Pieces can also get lost during division of the cells. If the piece of a chromosome that codes for the panda colouration is being turned off or suppresed by other genes on the chromosome, it would be possible for it to be switched 'on' when it attaches to another chromosome that lacks the suppressing gene(s).
Many breeds of dogs have markings similar to the panda. I think there were herding dogs ancestral to the GSD that have contributed to the gene pool.
The best known Panda, Frankie, has actually had genetic testing done, and they've pinpointed exactly which chromosome has the mutiation which caused the panda markings.
It would be interesting to see if the same mutation occured in Incavale's panda, but, unfortunately, this sort of testing is expensive.
Panda Shepherd
Katjo, I strongly suggest you review how basic genetics works.
In order for the border collie type markings to have remained hidden in the gene pool this long, it would have to have been a RECESSIVE characteristic.
A recessive gene cannot suddenly become dominant, as was the case with Frankie, therefore Frankie's colour must have been a spontaneous mutation. Some have brought up the point that Frankie's ancestors were not DNA'd to prove pure GSD ancestry; however, if they had carried this gene, it would have been expressed (shown up as the BC type markings.)
There is, of course, the possibility that one of Frankie's parents/ancestors was not the one in the pedigree, but a sneaky neighbour's collie than got through the fence. However, DNA tests are now sophisticated enough to show that a dog is of mixed parentage, and I assume this would have been discovered when Frankie was DNA'd.
So, there are only 2 possibilties:
1) The gene was recessive (disproved because Frankie produced mostly pups like herself, showing it was a dominant gene.) A recessive gene would have produced affected pups ONLY if Frankie was mated to a male that was a carrier for the panda colouration.
2) The gene was a spontaneous mutation for the panda type pattern.
Panda Shepherd
Hm.
A black GSD (homozygous recessive) can be bred with a black "carrier" dog of another color(heterozygous) and throw as high as 100% their recessive color in a litter, even tho genetic prediction only gives it a 1 out of 4, or 25% chance of that recessive color being produced. It's just up to what happens.
If I breed my black stud male to a lady in Cleveland's blk/red WGR show line female 4 hrs away and she has 4 out of 6 BLACK pups (it happened-October 2008), does that mean my male's black is proven dominant because his color was produced more in the litter? NO, Sunsilver, it doesn't(its already an established fact that black is recessive), but that's what you state in your first possibility. It means nothing more than that dog with the homozygous recessive color happened to throw their color strong in that particular breeding. Frankie could still be recessive in color, but since she IS the color, she's got the potential to produce none, or ALL like herself, or anything in between. It does not establish dominance or recessiveness in her color at all.
"Apparently, DNA tests on Frankie, the much-publicized Panda sheperd showed a definite gene mutation, which was DOMINANT, not recessive, meaning approximately 50% of the pups he produced would have the Panda colour pattern,..." -quoted from Sunsilver's earlier posting
I was merely mentioning what I did because you stated the DNA testing said Frankie's color was dominant. I didn't say it was a dominant color, nor do I exactly agree with that, or what you had stated. I just gave my thoughts IF that was possible.
So, things spontaneously mutate in various litters and produce the exact SAME results/markings multiple times in the same breed ? That's not exactly a mutation, then, is it? If it only happened once, yeah. But multiple times? So I don't agree with your second possibility, EITHER.
Funny, I had written my black comparison notes I just shared here earlier but then deleted them for fear I would confuse people. Sounds like maybe I should've went ahead and added them.
Shall you accompany me back to the books on genetics, Sunsilver? Sounds like you might need a refresher, too.
Panda Shepherd(what do you think?)
The best known Panda, Frankie, has actually had genetic testing done, and they've pinpointed exactly which chromosome has the mutiation which caused the panda markings.
Oh my, Rik's mind is made up. Let's not confuse him with the FACTS!!
Panda genetic information:
http://www.pandashepherds.com/genetic_panda_info
Personally, I don't believe they should have used this dog to start a new breed, either Rik. But it IS a GSD, and has every right to be discussed here. And I have a university degree in biology, so I find this sort of thing very interesting, even if it bothers me to see the breeder using these animals as cash cows. 
I also believe pandas have appeared before in the GSD, but the owners have kept mum about it, and either culled them or neutered them and sold them as pets.
the Panda Shepherd: an observation in Genetics
(a previous post on the topic: [here])
I know, everybody will be rolling their eyes and thinking "oh no, not this again"... but I must confess I've had a fascination with them ever since I first learned about the color. I notice that it seems to be tied to breeders who also produce white GSDs. As white is a dominant masking gene that obscures any other color the dog carries is it a possibility that there are a lot of "hidden" colors under the basecoat?
I decided to post this to toss in what I concluded about them, and possibly alleviate some of the mystery behind how they came to be. I'm not defending panda breeding as I never support breeding for color-only, but it's interesting to see what comes up.
Spontaneous mutations can occure, but are exceptionally rare. I am very skeptical this this is such a case. More often it's jsut recessive triats being expressed. The thing I wonder about is how often genetic abnormalities (such as this panda affect) cropped up before in whites but went completely unnoticed.
On looking for other herding dogs of similar coloration... The saddle color so commonly found in GSDs also occures in Border Collies. This is an example of a saddle BC. Aside from the white and lack of mask, this individual resembles the coloration of a GSD. This color pattern is recessive to solids in the Border Collie.
Using the BC as a starting point I started looking at the colors and white factoring in them to see if I could draw any comparisons to the German Shepherd Dog.
As far as I was able to dig up, there are three different varietions of the white spotting gene. One produces very little white, except on toes and the chest. We've all seen this in GSDs... sometimes it fades as the pups grow... sometimes it does not.
The second varient produces the Dutch color pattern: white blaze, white bib around the neck, stockings... but the individual is predominantly colored.
The final varient is undesirable in BCs, and that produces nearly all-white individuals. Unlike the white GSD though this is a recessive white spotting, not a dominant one. It's the same as can be seen in breeds like Boxers and Great Danes, and when exhibited in the fullest it tends to have negative side effects such as lack of pigmentation in nose, pawpads, eyerims, and can be linked to deafness as well. This is not to be confused with albinoism, the lack of all pigment.
What I'm looking for now is if anyone has resources to provide conclusive information on the lineage (dam, sire, grands... as far back as I can go) of poster-child panda shepherd Frankie. It quite possible that this is a normal bred GSD exhibiting a rare trait; however I do not know how ethical it is to deliberately try to perpetuate it. I've seen pics of Phenom's panda puppies, but I'd rather see the pedigree thereof. If anyone can provide direction to such, I would be greatly appreciative.
~J.C.
PS. My own experience with "spotted shepherds"
I have known occasions of a GSD pup produced by respectable breeders who claimed to have produced a dog with some collie-like markings. I have not seen any photos of said dog, but have no evidence to doubt the source. Incidentally the breeder in reference states they did NOT market the pup as a rare color, and did NOT try to start a new breeding program with it. I know that the breeder was not very proud of the little freak and does not like having the subject brought up.
In my
PANDA SHEPHERDS
What I would take issue with is deliberately breeding these dogs as a seperate 'type' of GSD, especially when the homozygous form of the gene is lethal.
Since Frankie was born, I have heard of many other instances of panda shepherds that are not related to Frankie. Some of these reports come from decades back. The only difference is these animals were either sold as pets, or culled.
Go here to read about the owner of a panda pup who lives in Australia: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=16092&pagen=3
Panda Shepherds
Heck, some people even refuse to believe Frankie was purebred, even though it's been carefully documented by DNA testing!
Let me see if I can find the link to the other panda, the one not related to Frankie. The owner even posted pictures here.
Panda Shepherd(what do you think?)
The geneticist didn't say a double panda dog was impossible. He merely said one hadn't been produced yet, probably due to concern about too close inbreeding on Frankie!
So, what's it's going to be for the GSD forum...............
[quote]My statement holds the same truths..........
And I do believe that no one should become abusive to anyone on this forum or any other for that matter.
But, besides "offensive, vulgar words"....there are ways to put in words "abuse".[/quote]
I'm going to let Rik's words speak for themselves. Here's his comments on my bitch, who has 4 German SIegers and 2 American GV's in her pedigree. Unfortunately, she didn't turn out the way I'd hoped, but she is certainly not the product of a puppy mill or BYB. Fred Lanting evaluated a picture of her for me, and said she had some very nice points conformation-wise. She was sold to me as a potential showdog/breeding dog, but as we all know, puppies are a crapshoot. Her front feet turn in slightly, so she doesn't gait nicely, and one hip came back mildly dysplastic. So, I've had to swallow a really big disappointment, and get her spayed. We are now working on tracking and obedience, and when the time comes, she will replace Ranger, my male rescue, as my Hearing Ear dog.
(Okay, someone please explain to me how a dog that comes from showline parents is NOT a 'showline'?? No, I didn't say SHOW DOG. )SunSilver, I'm sure your dog is a nice pet, but by no stretch, of any standard in any civilized nation is your dog a S/L
Not American, not German. It is a pet as are 90+% of all "show dog breeding's" any breed, any country.
Why you would point to such a complete POS "anatomy wise" to prop up Xeph and compare to dogs such as Vegas, Ilbo, Dexter, Idol, Hoss, I can not fathom.
It turns out both Xeph and I HAVE visited the Estahaus site, and Xeph nearly purchased a dog from him.
Not only do you make this comment from never having gone to Germany, you and SunSilver are apparently so incredidbly stupid, or lazy, that you do not even visit Estahaus web site to view the many videos he post of Am. Type/ German S/L dogs he brings from Germany.
This was after I posted links to the genetic testing done on Frankie which showed he was a purebred GSD, and even pinpointing the chromosome which had the mutation for the panda colouring. I also posted links to another thread, started by a lady with the username Incavale, who had a panda pup born in a litter of very well-bred German GSD's. All other pups looked like normal GSD's.
hamza, you do not understand. This is a GSD forum.
You must be incredibly stupid to think that the world of the GSD falls fot your "Panda Shit".
Take it to the general message board, take it to a Shiloh Board, take it any where except to a GSD board.
Hell, take it to that eternal sow, SuinSilver.
Just do not post this incredible stupid shit on a GSD board
Newcomers come her and ask questions about the panda. To them, it is new. The regular posters groan and think "Oh, no, not this again!" But like Xeph being asked for the thousandth time about how to stop a dog from jumping up, I thnk we have an obligation to answer POLITELY, even if it's just to tell the person to use the 'search' function to find those other panda threads!
I could post a few other 'gems', but I think that's enough. Time to get off the computer and do something with my 'POS' dogs!
Panda Shepherd
Anyway, the same photo is in Fred Lanting's book, The Total GSD, and here's what he has to say about the collie-type dogs:
"The "Scotch" Collie was once incorporated into the breed, but von Stephanitz waged a campaign to get rid of the softer temperment, narrow muzzle, and merle coloration, so Collies were excluded early from the gene pool. The last blue merle GSDs died in the late 1920s or early '30s."
The picture of the dogs is labelled "Pre-SV type dogs".
So, did the collie type colour pattern die out, or is this a recessive gene resurfacing? Apparently, DNA tests on Frankie, the much-publicized Panda sheperd showed a definite gene mutation, which was DOMINANT, not recessive, meaning approximately 50% of the pups he produced would have the Panda colour pattern, and the normal-coloured pups would not have the Panda gene.
Hey all, so I can across this, and what do you think??
"I know there were a lot of people who doubted Frankie was purebred, until the results of the genetic tests were made public"
Sunsilver not quite correct. A lot of people (including a very respected geneticist) doubted Frankie was purebred even after the genetic tests were made public. The heads are not right on the Panda's and the color palette is too similiar to a couple other herding breeds.
This has been discussed before so just a quick summary. The problem with the genetic tests were twofold. First they only tested Mom and Dad and said Frankie was a product of mom and dad and dad I believe it was had the "mutation" which produced Frankie. Problem they did no back test any other generations so it is not genetically proven that dad was who he was supposed to be. The suspicion among those of us who doubt the purity of the line is that a generation or two back there had been a fence jumper since as I noted the heads (and some body structures as well) are just a bit off. Can this happen and people not know - a resounding yes. A litter I am familiar with was an oops between a lab and a gsd. The owner easily could have sold these dogs a purebred labs - there was not a speck of gsd evident in any of them. Now obviously she did not do that. All the owners well know that these are mutts so no breeding forward will happen. But take that scenario with a less honest person or even take it with a totally honest person who did not realize there had been a fence jumper.
The second problem is the scientists who did the testing were academics with no knowledge of GSD and the history of the breed and the colors and inheritance in the breed AND they were not dog breeders so I'm thinking lacked the practical knowledge of incidents as outlined above. If you do not consider any other possibilities then of course you will decide it's a mutation because what else could it be.
Opinions Please! (Panda German Shepherds???)
I have seen the 'panda' marked GSDs produced in other breedings not remotely related to Brain von der Wolper Lowen or Cynthia's Madchen Alspach, Frankie's parents.
I've seen pics fo a litter where this exact same type of white marking was seen (not the blue eyes, tho) in a litter that was born 10+yrs before this Frankie. Purebred without a doubt.
It's just a thing where a dog, for some reason or another, inherits more than the typically tolerated amount of white-on the chest, nose, legs, shoulders, tail tip.
If you watch on Hoobly, you will see people with tri-color 'panda' shepherd puppies for sale-some in Ohio. some in Indiana. There were ads for them just a month ago, but I don't think any are there currently. Not a major abnormality-just something that has cropped up in the breed. Since it's been monopolized in the US and the US is a major fan for "designer" stuff, including dogs, then its sold here.
If the demand wasn't there for people to purchase such-produced pups, then people wouldn't breed for such. The breed standard isn't considered when it comes to such. It's a novelty. Where else but in America! Do you think the German SV breeders would smile upon this, or cull it? lol. I'll let you guess.
Blue eyes?
NatureDragon, the Panda gene has been thoroughly investigated, and was proved to be a mutation that arose in a single dog (Frankie) that was the offspring of two registered German Shepherds. It's a dominant gene, and is lethal in its homozygous form - there are no double Pandas, all are heterozygous for the Panda gene.
There are other instances of Panda shepherds having been born, but breeders of these dogs were dedicated to the breed standard, and neutered them and sold them as pets. In the old days, these pups would have just quietly 'disappeared', if you get what I mean.
But yeah, if an animal has a white patch next to an eye, it's quite common for the eye to be blue instead of brown. I've often seen it with horses, too.
whats your take
A mutation can happen at any time, although it's rare that there is one that is easily observed. For example, the solid (recessive) black color in GSDs is a result of a mutation many years ago. And a mutation is what the original Panda Shepherd was found to be by the DNA tests. And in support of these results, the mutation is dominant (meaning only one parent needs to have the mutation to produce the white in puppies) and it also seems to be lethal when a dog has 2 genes for the mutation. Meaning that if you breed a Panda to a Panda, half the pups will die in utero.
The other piebald genes in dogs are recessive and both parents have to have the genes to produce the white coloring. So, that would mean that if Frankie were a cross, she wouldn't have produced any piebald pups unless the other parent also had the piebald gene. Yet, there were Panda colored dogs in all of her litters, which again supports that the mutation is dominant: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=542954-lewcinkas-franka-von-phenom&p=progeny
As far as the original poster's puppies, I think that either another dog got to the mom for some of the pups or the mom and dad both have some non-GSD genes. The head type on the pup doesn't appear to be typical GSD type--looks more collie/sheltie type.
Christine
Panda Shepherd
So if Frankie was just a spontaneous mutation (dominant gene like you say), coloration not from a recessive gene hidden for many many generations, how do you explain all the other litters, NOT RELATED to Frankies line being born? whats the chances to have such a "rare" spontaneous mutation to keep popping up in more and more litters?
There can be absolutely no doubt that Frankie's pattern is a new mutation, it segregates as a dominant, not a recessive. Do you mean litters from the same breeder producing typical panda pattern and not related to Frankie? I wasn't aware of those. Could you post some links.
If these others are just the odd occurrence like Inca's puppy above, then the four possibilities that I listed will apply. If, as you say, the incidence of white spotting is increasing, it could be down to a depleting gene pool increasing the incidence of rare recessive doubling up and expressing this pattern. And/or possibly breeders are more inclined these days to be open about these things and even celebrate them as 'rare' whereas in the past they would have been put down at birth without a word said.
Sunsilver. I've discovered the table feature. There's a symbol in the toolbar at the top of the message box.
| p | p | |
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Pp | Pp |
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ETA: Hah! The table outline has vanished. There must be a way to fix that :-)
Panda Shepherd
Panda pups have been produced from the following:
blk/tan import titled/hip certified sire x solid black OFAed mother (Frankie)
blue patterned sire x long coat blk/reddish tan mother (litter I saw the pics of years ago)
Panda litter currently on Hoobly has a BC marked blk/tan mom, traditional blk/red father.
Frankie might be the BEST bred of the pups documented from such strange occurrance, but she's not the only, nor is she the first.
panda gene in fawn
I am sure most of us remember the Frankie controversy (Panda shepherd) ? Many people were convinced he was a mixed breed. Even after genetic testing was done, some were STILL convinced that he wasn't pure GSD, because his parents hadn't been tested.
Well, here's proof a panda-type mutation can crop up unexpectedly in other species, too! No question of THIS deer being a mixed breed!
He is being bottle fed, as his mother rejected him, probably due to his strange colouration.
Edit: further investigation shows he inherited a rare piebald gene from his mother, so this was not a spontaneous mutation, as it was in Frankie's case.
Here's more info: http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com/piebald-deer.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/02/rejected-white-faced-fawn-michigan_n_7494792.html
Ah, well, I should have know some human meddling was involved. 
Panda Shepherd
I think you're right to assume this is something from the past. The marking are very typical of irish spotting, a pattern that has been in the breed right from the start but doesn't show very often because of rareity and/or breeders' unwillingness to be open about these things. I don't think looking common ancesrty in Frankie's pedigree is going to tell you much as the mutation that caused the panda happened within Frankie and would not have been present in her parents or ancestors.
Panda Shepherd(what do you think?)
The website of Frankie's owners says the colour is caused by a mutation. The mutated gene is DOMINANT for the panda colour . If a dominant gene is present, it wil ALWAYS be expressed. In other words, if you cross two pandas ALL the offspring are going to be panda!
I really don't understand how you could get a litter of B&T's. Can you explain this more fully, please? Is there somewhere where the information is posted on the web?
Thanks!
Max would Cry
At the same time we were discussing Frankie on this board, another member had a Panda pup in Australia. They did the proper thing, though, and rather than breed it, they made sure it went to a good pet home on a spay/neuter contract. Unfortunately, the picture links no longer work:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.read?post=540437-panda-shepherdwhat-do-you-think&p=19
I am not aware of anyone in Oz who actually deliberately bred Pandas.
Edit: if you look at Franka's pedigree, you will see just WHY so many Pandas can work. Her father is SchIII and many of her ancestors are working line dogs. Even her dam's line has DDR dogs just 2 generations back.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=542954-lewcinkas-franka-von-phenom
Max would Cry
Frankie, the foundation bitch for the 'Panda' shepherd had spots like that:
Frankie came from 2 solid-coloured GSDs. It has been determined by genetic studies that her colour was due to a gene mutation, which is dominant for the piebald colour.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=542954-lewcinkas-franka-von-phenom
http://imgur.com/gallery/qwXdV
The KIT mutation is lethal in the homozygous form:
https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/GermanShepherdPanda.php
The other gene that causes white markings is the Irish spotting gene. I believe that's the one that's recessive.
Pike and Livers!
The biggest argument for the Panda being a spontaneous mutation is that it is a *dominant* trait, not a recessive trait (Irish spotting and piebald factor are both recessive). If it was a recessive trait due to cross breeding with another breed of dog, the coloring likely would have been bred out within a generation or so. Because it is dominant, only one parent is required to have the gene (white marking) to pass it on, the coloring won't appear unless the parent shows the trait, and if you breed 2 Panda shepherds together, there seems to some problems when a dog is homozygous for the trait (embryonic lethal).
"The Panda Pattern first occurred, as a spontaneous mutation, in a German Shepherd named Lewcinkas Franka Von Phenom (Frankie), in the year 2000. She was quite the surprise to her breeders when she was born. In order to find out why she had so much white, she was taken to Ohio State University Veterinary Hospital. There, her parentage was verified; but the cause of her white pattern could not be definitively determined. The pattern continued to be studied until the causative mutation was located by Mark Neff, Ph.D., a geneticist at UC Davis. The mutation was found on the KIT gene, a gene widely responsible for white patterns, regardless of species; and like many other KIT gene mutations (although not all) the Panda White Pattern is an embryonic lethal when homozygous. This means that pups that are homozygous for the Panda Pattern do not develop in the womb and are reabsorbed very early in the development process. Because this happens so early in development, this does not affect the health of other pups in the same litter or the health of the dam. Panda is a dominant mutation (homozygous embryonic lethal) that can visually look very similar to an Irish Spotting pattern. It causes white on the limbs, belly, neck, and face, with the white being concentrated toward the front of the dog. The front legs will often have white above the knees, while the back legs will have much less, often just on the toes. Blue eyes are uncommon. Dogs with the Panda Pattern not more prone to deafness or other maladies than any other German Shepherd dog." http://colorgenetics.info/canine/white-patterns
Here's the web page for the breeders of the first Panda: http://www.pandashepherds.com/genetic_panda_info
Christine
Panda Shepherd(what do you think?)
My point was that, as melanocyte migration is somewhat random, more extensive white areas on the facial region could possibly occur, and if we look at the original panda - Frankie, it is evident that this gene appears to have the same effect as the S locus in that missing pigment in the eye region results in blue iris. It is therefore resonable to assume that missing pigment in the inner ear, if it were to occur in a panda, would results in hearing defects. Not a major concern though, I would think, as the incidence, even if it did occur, would be very low.
Panda Shepherd
Others that claim to be pandas might not be at all. It could be any one of the other three possibilites responsible, and the breeders are just cashing in on the panda bonanza. The one case that could be interesting is -
I can't find the specific link now on Hoobly to show you that there's been a litter of Border Collie marked AKC GSD pups advertised (probably all are sold or gone or the ad removed-it was just there a couple of days ago)-sired by a normal looking blk/red GSD father. The mother was a light blk/tan with the white BC markings on face/nose, chest, legs, and tail tip
Assuming this is an entire litter with white marking, It is possible that this could be recessive irish white spotting and either intentional or coincidence that the sire carried too. The expected ratio would then be 1:1 spotting:no spotting but not unusual at all to have a full litter of one type with that probability. It sometimes happens that large litters of all one sex are born. The same ratio probability applies to gender. Do you know how many were in the litter and the colours of them all? Other explanations, as above, this could possibly be another new mutation. Could be the same panda gene or completely new one.... or, a big white dog has jumped the fence.
The litter with one or two Collie marked pups is most likely a case of recessive irish spotting. If both parents carried, the expected ratio is 1:3 spotting:no spotting.
The difference with the true panda gene is that it undoubtedly first occurred as a new mutation. If it had been present in either of the parents, then it would have expressed in them, and I believe the parentage has been DNA verified. And it breeds consistently as a dominant. All other cases of white spotting that I've heard of in Shepherds can be explained in other ways.
Just a mention of the blue eyes. There's at least three ways in which blue eyes are produced. The most likely in the case of Frankie is that absence of pigment in the facial area has meant that it is also missing from the eye, causing it to be blue. Breeds with a lot of facial white do tend to have this type of blue eye - Border Collie, Dalmatian, OES etc. The fact that Frankie's blue eye did not pass on to her progeny or segregate in the same way as the coat pattern can be explained this way. It's just a matter of chance which areas happen to be populated by pigment cells in migration, but there seems to be a natural defence mechanism in place to ensure pigment gets as far as possible to the most critcal areas ie the nose, eyes and inner ear.
Help identifying color/type
Your making it more complicated than it is. Of course they have not all been tested, but looking at the breeding results shows it acts like a Dominant K black. Progeny/production results can tell you a lot about a dog the same way a pedigree can. It goes both ways. Actually, sometimes I think the progeny information is much more valueable.
TIG says #1 Have ALL the dogs claiming to carry a dominant black trait been dna'd for the K locus?
For the ones born after dna came into use was their parentage confirmed - if not why not?
Parentage confirmation is not done to my knowledge in dogs unless there is a dispute or the owner feels like it. Some registries claim to keep DNA samples on file such an occassion? This would be extremely expensive also. The data and images alone speak for themselves and would require too much effort to fake.
TIG, if you study the progeny pictures of these blacks you will see it more easy.
2. the testing was done by folks w no breed knowledge who declared the panda gene a mutation in her father w/o knowing his background or checking for an interloper and also w/knowing the old gsd standards which talked about piebalds.
Well, without going there, (Panda) AGAIN (lol) in a nutshell, they would have studied the sire's DNA, linked him as the parent, then seen the actual mutation on the gene specifically inherited from her sire. Remember, they always have two of everything, one inherited from each parent. So, The Science all checks out for Frankie, but only Frankie if they did what I think they did. However I've seen some others I have a real problem believing.
So the question then becomes a. do these dogs in fact carry a K locus gene (see above) and IF they do how did they acquire it since breed history and SV records and now dna analysis confirm that GSDs are aa for a recessive black. (see quote above). I can postulate 3 possibilities 1. the gene was always there just never turned on 2. a true mutation somehow occured and 3. the gene entered the genome thru a breeding with a dog that carried who was not a GSD.
a. All Dogs Carry 2 genes at the the K locus you mean the dominant black allele. (Also all dogs carry two genes on the agouti and every other locus. DNA confirms some GSDs are aa on agouti and are also solid black in color. The funny part is you can't prove they are not also dominant black on K without a test, as a dog could be both. (You would have to search for the known alleli in the gsd for the k locus, and, that would also be subject to "updates")
They aquired it as dogs. Dogs existed before the SV, you know most mammals probably have a homologous area for the K locus in dogs. The 3 possibilities you posted are possibilities. The funny part about number 3 though is that all genes entered the GSD Breed through whatever stock came before the GSD Breed. :)
I underlined what I thought were your questions and tried to answer them the best I can. The whole reason for me mentoning K locus was just another way that bi-color might get hidden or alterred is all. I learnt of it through a thread we had on Pedigreedatabase a long time ago as well. Dominant black & brindle in dogs are said to be due to specific alleles on the K locus. This is a historical Brindle / Saddle dog.
1913 SGR Arno von der Eichenburg 
The science says a Brindle / Bicolor (Pattern) / Black & Tan (Color) GSD could exist. I guess it will depend from country to country or registry to registry what they allow you to register and/or exhibit at their particular shows/trials and events and in their database.
To get back to Bi Color, these dogs used to be much more common. Now, with regards to the SV, I only see them in SV German working lines. The SV Show line is all black/red saddle with a few sables, except for some solid blacks, some aa (Agouti) and some from the Dominant Black Russian dogs. Maybe we can take 2X VA1 Larus von Batu picture one day and make him a Bi Color just for fun for a day.
Blue eyes?
Didn't entirely 'miss' it, just becoming very sceptical about explanations involving 'Dominant' genes; the more I read and find out about the amount of information on the science of genetics that we humans DON'T yet know for sure. [For instance, compare arguments re all-black coats, - 'Dominant Black' gene, or no ?]
There has to be a lot more worked out about the way alleles are grouped and what exactly turns those groups (multi factoral genes) 'On' and 'Off' in relation to other dogs ostensibly carrying the same genetic patterns, before we can be quite as dogmatic as we used to be. IMO.
And anybody can make claims about the apparent origin of a trait in a family of dogs, and who is to counter those claims without lengthy test matings * ? You say Frankie was thoroughly investigated but can we trust that, really ?
Certainly there seem to be more than a few more Panda-marked about (c/f those many FB piccies) than one would expect just on chance emergence, and you don't generally get 12 Liver pups in a 12-strong litter either, its still worth their pursuit apparently to be able to sell 'chocolate' dogs.
* & how (and by whom) was "Panda to Panda matings = lethal" shown / proved, anyway ? Folk used to believe Sable to Sable might be lethal, once upon a time, until it became obvious it wasn't.
Blue eyes?
Sunny, thanks for those links. In the second, it says "For the Homozygous state , no live dogs(ie pups) were observed" - not how many litters / matings were tested. (I'll try to read the full body of their Report later). I remain sceptical; too many reported incidences, where exceptions to genetic 'rules' have appeared, themselves partly leading to the current day shift of emphasis to studying ON & OFF mechanisms on gene loci ...
However. I simply offered the 'Option'. Let me point out that Kennel Clubs are notorious for their occasional failure in investigating anything too far, if it threatens Registration Income. How far back in any two pedigees do you think they actually check ancestry to ensure no lies (about anything, not just dodgy Panda blood) about a litter have crept in, and pedigrees been faked ? The Dog world operates on Trust - and surely enough breeders have been caught out offering: fake info, fake certfication, substitute dogs, yada yada yada. It is so much easier to run a computerised check these days than it used to be, but nonetheless, do they ? Always ? And if a lie gets through successfully, does it not continue to get through successfully, even unto the nth generation, unless some astute researcher or interested party manages to expose it ? Not all dogs are ID DNA'd, by a long way, where KCs do not insist.
Also, given what we've said about propensity to 'puppy farm' with or without Papers, - and for all I know every one of those Panda pets on FB came from an unregistered litter, - perhaps claims about not introducing other breeds to any breeding containing Frankie are all true. Perhaps some other examples of the mutated gene were / have been culled out.That does not eradicate producing puppies with ostensible 'Panda' markings by introducing that other, Husky or ACD or Border Collie, or whatever breed with a lot of white bits (AND associated blue eyes, to a GSD 'other parent' (whether or not an unculled specimen, with even a very rare mutation) - thus making you look twice, as you yourself said. They are certainly coming from somewhere, and they are certainly being passed off as 'GSDs' to (pet, maybe some 'working') buyers - which means somewhere along the line their gene makeup will get back into GSDs-proper, even if only non-KC Registered stock (and who knows, given what I said about checking, how long that state remains ?).
Panda Shepherd(what do you think?)
Sorry, biting my tongue here to keep from saying something even more sarcastic...
There is another poster on the database who also had a Panda appear spontaneously in one of her litters. The dogs were not related to Frankie at all, and all the other pups in the litter were normally coloured. There was also no chance of another male having gotten to the bitch.
Mutations happen. It's a fact of life, and a fascinating one. However, it should NOT be the jumping off point for a new breed!
Panda Shepherd
I ve seen panda's out of a
white male bred to a rich blk/red female(mostly import lines)
years ago I had an american showline female, her grandsire was lovenly nicknamed Skunk. he had a large white stripe from his nose to his forehead, big white chest and white toes. he was out of a very prominent Ch.
and I know of breeders breeding these "panda" dogs, who are unrelated to Frankie. where did their coloration come from?
Panda Shepherd
Well, then the mystery is over. There's your answer for all this.
How do we have multiple unrelated litters/GSDs being produced with the SAME "novel" mutation?
The spontaneous thing is used to assure people the breeding is "pure", not a mixed breeding.
I doubt those geneticists have seen/analyzed DNA from similar GSDs who display the same characteristics unrelated to Frankie. Most of the panda breeding I've seen have been has not been out of imported or titled dogs.
Pike and Livers!
I am serious that about two weeks ago, I linked a panda shepherd to another shepherd through Pike, and I was threatened with a lawsuit for slander...
I mean really now...It is what it is, and No, I didn t take the link down. The sad truth is, these color s would be clearly more visible if people could lise the ignorance that comes with it.
I often wonder if that is the reason for some of these seemingly small litters out of top kennels...
The woman that threatened to sue me is this "big time" trainer/breeder in my area. A know it all, know nothing
Claims she breeds to strict SV rules, her dog is SAR dog, as was the mother...than no titles, no hip scores, basicly nothing on a few generations behind that.
No BH, breed survey, etc., etc., but Pike is in the pedigree 5-6 generations back and also in the litters sire pedigree a few generations back, her big selling point..PIKE..on both ends, so I just put Frankie the panda up, with Pike closer up in the pedigree,
And WOW...this be-otch snapped...lol (facebook fun)
the Panda Shepherd: an observation in Genetics
Link to Panda Shepherd Frankie o9n the OFA web site
Her Dam is:
| DL65766004 | Oct 16 1996 | F |
with both sire and dam also Listed, so we can reseach this pedigree!
PANDA SHEPHERDS
I do not want to start an issue, I just want more information regarding these supposed sutdies???
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/p/pandashepherd.htm
The Panda Shepherd Dog is a piebald German Shepherd which has occured in a single GSD bloodline. It is 35% white, the remainder of color is black and tan. It is a spontaneous mutation and has no White German Shepherds in its ancestry. The parents who produced the black/tan/white female puppy were a purebred black German Shepherd dam and a purebred black and tan German Shepherd sire. The rest of the litter were standard looking black and tan German Shepherd pups. The sole black/tan/white puppy also had two blue eyes. In order to protect the image of her breeding program the founding breeder, Ms. Cindy took the piebald puppy to Ohio State University Veterinary Hospital for genetic DNA testing to find out the exact cause of the anomaly. The parents of the pups were confirmed as purebred GSD's with no White GSD's or other breeds in their lines. This was a purebred GSD who was born with piebald coloring. The same sire and dam who produced the piebald puppy were bred three more times and all the pups were born with the traditional black and tan coloring. A lot of canine genetic coat color testing was done on the piebald puppy who was named Frankie. When Frankie matured she was bred to a traditional colored black and tan GSD. Out of the four puppies born three turned out to have black/tan/white coats but lacked the blue eyes, while the fourth puppy was the traditional black and tan coloring. The black/tan/white German Shepherd dogs were given the name Panda Shepherds.
What type of breeds is this?
This guy, for instance, has that 'little bear' look I'm used to seeing with GSD pups: He looks like a little tank!
Most of them don't because they are probably American line GSDs, which tend to be finer boned.
I admit I have a hard time getting past the strange eye colour, though!
Kali, the Panda gene is a mutation, and it's doubtful it would be in any way linked to ivermectin sensitivity. I think Frankie has produced enough descendants now that we'd know about it if it was. But you're right, some genes do tend to be inherited together.
the Panda Shepherd: an observation in Genetics
Karmen Asked
"So why are they saying it's coming from the sire and nothing from the dam? I thought both had to contribute for such genes? Can some explain why they say the bitch's genes had nothing to do with it? Maybe I am not fully understanding all the above statements in the thread and on the Panda Shepherd website. "
Karmen, Thank you so much for the link to Frankie's sire
I am going to try to explain. They are saying this because it is known that ALL nuclear DNA in Dogs is inherited in the following fashion. (50% from the dam and 50% from the sire) (Mitochondrial DNA is only inherited from the Dam).
If the DNA testing is thorough enough, you can account for each gene in an individual as far as who contributed it. There are only two choices. Sire or Dam. And each dog carries only 50% of each of their parents Nuclear DNA meaning they also Don’t Carry 50% of each of their Parents Nuclear DNA.
Since Color can be greatly influenced by only one gene, often it only takes one parent to pass it on.: e.g. Sables only need to inherit one Sable gene from one parent to express Sable color. Shoulder, Croup, temperament and such definitely take a combination of more genes.
What is being claimed is that the “spontaneous mutation”, if it is that, happened in Frankie on a gene contributed by her sire. This would mean that nobody but Frankie Carries it. Not Frankie’s Dam, Not Frankie’s Sire, and Not any of Frankie’s Full sibling.
As TIG wishes, I too wish we had tests on the Grandparents of Frankie, but I don’t know that those are available to us.
If it is a gene contributed by a grandparent as TIG and jc and are explaining, it could be, then that it was unexpressed because of another gene on another locus affecting it’s expression. This Other gene may be one we don’t fully understand well yet as far as it’s relation and effect on other genes.
Panda Shepherd
I know, Moose, but that breeder has had a 'monopoly' on her breeding stock-I'd say 95+% sold on mandatory spay/neuter with stiff penalties written into the purchase contract for violation of such like confiscation of all progeny produced with a panda GSD bought from her on spay/neuter contract (last I heard that was how it was) plus a hefty $$$$ penalty. Long story, but that's at least how it was some years ago. The pups in those Hoobly ads are not from her stock (she would CRAP to see pups pictured in kennels like in those ads and would probably attempt to confiscate them if they were from her stock!).
Shadow Oaks Texas Star, aka Texas, was a grandsire to her Frankie (Frankie's black mother Madchen's FATHER), not a granddam as previously mentioned-he was a solid black male with a watchdog title. I knew him personally a few years before he died.
Yes, I remember that dog also, Sue. Kinda rather shocking, but I don't recall where it was, either. Big ole white chest-such an eyesore IMO.
PEDIGREE's of WELL know GSD's that carry the blue and liver gene
Sueincc - hoping not to start another war here but I think it is going a bit far to call the "Panda" a breed. There certainly are promoters(scam artistis, con men) who are trying to position themselves in that picture but if you look they are regularly breeding to GSDs and white GSDs. Also re the only difference being color - maybe not. There are subtle differences to the structure esp the "original" Frankie most noticeable in the head structure to make many suspect the "addition" of something in the gene pool. And before anyone crawls done my back and says wait they did DNA tests all they did was test mom and dad and frankie and said that Frankie came from mom and dad. That does not address the issue of possible interbreeding taking place someplace else in the pedigree and being carried forward.
Panda Shepherd(what do you think?)
Well, first off, Frankie was not produced out of 2 blk/tan parents as mentioned in the beginning of this topic. Her sire was a SchH3 titled import working line dog who was blk/tan with darker marked face (Brain von der Wolper Lowen to be precise-he's here on the database). Her mother Madchen was solid black. Madchen was never titled but was OFA hip certified Good-I met her in person years ago.
The breeding between these two are essentially mostly working lines with some American show lines coming through from the mother Madchen's paternal side. Hence the conformation shouldn't be expected to be extreme, since it didn't originate from a majority American show line breeding.
The DNA testing has been done; this is not a jumped fence thing, but rather, an initial fluke that can apparently happen within the GSD breed. The markings appear similar to that of a typical Border Collie (white on the tail tip, white around the nose, white up the center of the head, white around the neck and into the chests, white up front feet but usually only on the feet/toes of the back, and so forth). That is not saying its actually FROM a Border Collie as to be accusing panda shepherds of being mixed breeds. I don't think they are mixed breeds at all. The Canaan dog pictured seems to have a bit too much white for me personally. I think it all stems from the original herding dogs like the Collie, BC, and the GSD.
There have been litters produced long before "Frankie" who had these same similar markings, so it has surfaced before. Just the blue eyes has never been seen/documented prior to her. Nor was such things typically publicized like today, nor did we have genetic testing back then like we have today.
As far as personal opinions, I don't think it really matters-people are gonna do what they're gonna do. If you don't like it, then don't like it. If you do like it, then like it.
the Panda Shepherd: an observation in Genetics
I have some problems w/ the flat out statements that are being made by the Panda people and Davis. At the time of the original testing Davis had no clue that in fact historically there had been "piebald" GSDS ( mentioned in the old standards but no one knew what they looked like - some suspected it might have meant merle). So first and foremost if you don't know the breed history how can you KNOW that this is a spontaneous mutation and NOT a lurking gene( as we have seen before other off colors can lurk for many many generations before resurfacing again). That alone to me raises a HUGE question about the whole "scientific" validity of what is being claimed.
Secondly the testing that was done( based on emails exhanged w/ Frankie's owners right after it was done) basically JUST established that Dad was Dad and Mom was Mom. Once again "scientifically" this proves nothing. It certainly does not prove the purebred status of either Mom or Dad. For all we know there could have been a cross breeding(accidently or on purpose) a generation or two back. If the dogs chosen to go forward phenotypically looked like GSD there would be no way to know but they could have been carrying the tricolor genes and since the testing did not go back up the pedigree (which in my opinion it should have) we will never know. Again I have to condemn the lack of good research and "scientific" approach on the part of the researchers who did the testing. What were they thinking that they did not apply a far more rigorous standard to their investigations.
I have discussed this with several very well respected and knowledgeable GSD people including professional geneticists and that is the suspicion of several for two reasons. One the color pattern too closely resembles some other breeds and there is an uncharacteristic head structure on many of the progeny - at first you want to say a coarseness but it is not so much a coarseness as a wrongness to the structure that draws the eye.
I have no way of kowing whether Frankie's owners are raking in the bucks but I do find it interesting the speed w/ which they set about establishing a "separate" "rare" breed especially after their initial protestations that they had no intentions of doing any such thing. The biggest problem w/ all of this that I see is that when you start to breed for 1 and only 1 trait to the exclusion of all else you have just made a genetic black hole for yourself and your dogs and unfortunately sooner or later their owners.
Max would Cry
" Frankie came from 2 solid-coloured GSDs. It has been determined by genetic studies that her colour was due to a gene mutation, which is dominant for the piebald colour. "
What kind of "genetic studies" ? Is there any source available ?
As far as I remember they only tested for parentage, nothing else, and the "parents" could be out of anything ( at least for me the interesting part is everything BEHIND the parent generation, and I would like to see a picture of mom, and mom´s parents, too ).
In case it´s really a "mutation" - Pieboldism is part of Leuzism, connected to a lot of health problems -
http://www.informatics.jax.org/marker/MGI:96677
I don´t mind, funny looking dogs, but why breed for them?
In case I´d be in charge of PDB I wouldn´t allow to enter descendants of this dog into the "German Shepherd Dog" section - they even call those dogs by themselves "Panda" Shepherds - the dogs are no German Shepherd Dogs any more, bred first and foremost for color, nothing else.
Why do we still find those dogs in the German Shepherd Dog section? The "Whites" got an own section, so should the "Pandas"...
Take a look at this inbreeding: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1969749-phenoms-lady-jayne
- this is the attempt to create a new breed, not the attempt to breed German Shepherd Dogs.
Panda Shepherd
Uberland, look at what I said about the genes crossing over and exchanging bits and pieces. Certain mutations are more common than others. For example, in humans, the mutation that produces Down's Syndrome is the result of an extra 21st chromosome. It could be that the mutation which creates the panda colouration is a fairly common mutation, as mutations go. The gene for the color is there, but is inactive, due to the effect of another gene. All that has to happen is for that inhibiting gene to break off, or get transferred to another chromosome, and the panda gene will be expressed.
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