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by jc.carroll on 15 January 2008 - 16:01
(a previous post on the topic: [here])
I know, everybody will be rolling their eyes and thinking "oh no, not this again"... but I must confess I've had a fascination with them ever since I first learned about the color. I notice that it seems to be tied to breeders who also produce white GSDs. As white is a dominant masking gene that obscures any other color the dog carries is it a possibility that there are a lot of "hidden" colors under the basecoat?
I decided to post this to toss in what I concluded about them, and possibly alleviate some of the mystery behind how they came to be. I'm not defending panda breeding as I never support breeding for color-only, but it's interesting to see what comes up.
Spontaneous mutations can occure, but are exceptionally rare. I am very skeptical this this is such a case. More often it's jsut recessive triats being expressed. The thing I wonder about is how often genetic abnormalities (such as this panda affect) cropped up before in whites but went completely unnoticed.
On looking for other herding dogs of similar coloration... The saddle color so commonly found in GSDs also occures in Border Collies. This is an example of a saddle BC. Aside from the white and lack of mask, this individual resembles the coloration of a GSD. This color pattern is recessive to solids in the Border Collie.
Using the BC as a starting point I started looking at the colors and white factoring in them to see if I could draw any comparisons to the German Shepherd Dog.
As far as I was able to dig up, there are three different varietions of the white spotting gene. One produces very little white, except on toes and the chest. We've all seen this in GSDs... sometimes it fades as the pups grow... sometimes it does not.
The second varient produces the Dutch color pattern: white blaze, white bib around the neck, stockings... but the individual is predominantly colored.
The final varient is undesirable in BCs, and that produces nearly all-white individuals. Unlike the white GSD though this is a recessive white spotting, not a dominant one. It's the same as can be seen in breeds like Boxers and Great Danes, and when exhibited in the fullest it tends to have negative side effects such as lack of pigmentation in nose, pawpads, eyerims, and can be linked to deafness as well. This is not to be confused with albinoism, the lack of all pigment.
What I'm looking for now is if anyone has resources to provide conclusive information on the lineage (dam, sire, grands... as far back as I can go) of poster-child panda shepherd Frankie. It quite possible that this is a normal bred GSD exhibiting a rare trait; however I do not know how ethical it is to deliberately try to perpetuate it. I've seen pics of Phenom's panda puppies, but I'd rather see the pedigree thereof. If anyone can provide direction to such, I would be greatly appreciative.
~J.C.
PS. My own experience with "spotted shepherds"
I have known occasions of a GSD pup produced by respectable breeders who claimed to have produced a dog with some collie-like markings. I have not seen any photos of said dog, but have no evidence to doubt the source. Incidentally the breeder in reference states they did NOT market the pup as a rare color, and did NOT try to start a new breeding program with it. I know that the breeder was not very proud of the little freak and does not like having the subject brought up.
In my
by jc.carroll on 15 January 2008 - 16:01
In my opinion, such things can happen. But who -would!- like to boast about them if one is trying to produce topline dogs?... Other than breeders out for money, I mean.
by Karmen Byrd on 15 January 2008 - 17:01
"The novel mutation occurred in the Sire's germ line, and was then passed "
So the are saying the bitch's genetics had nothing do with the color???????
Karmen
by Bob-O on 15 January 2008 - 17:01
I understand that the collie is another dog that was long ago introduced into what eventually became the GSD but I cannot substanciate when this occured. One does see similar characterics such as a saddled back, ear set, build, etc.. Of course the Engish collie and the American collie are for a long time essentially two (2) different dog breeds, and there are other collie types as well.
Regards,
Bob-O
by Ceph on 15 January 2008 - 17:01
Um - white in the GSD is recessive at the extension locus...not dominant.
And there are four alleles to the spotting Locus :
S – self colored dogs
si – Irish spotting – 10-30% white (feet, lower legs, belly, chest, tail tip, color and blaze)
sp – Piebald – 20-30%white
sw – extreme white piebald – 10% or less is pigmented
A note on the spotting gene is that it is incompletley dominant...so if you have a si-sw you'll have the irish spotting pattern with more white, probably with a slightly less defined pattern, same with sp-sw - you'll have the piebald pattern, but there will be more white and it will be in a less defined pattern.
Piebalds occured during the early years of the GSD, and I think that perhaps the expression of white on the chest and the paws of colored GSDs is probably the expression of the S allele coupled with the si allele.
~Cate
by ProudShepherdPoppa on 15 January 2008 - 17:01
v. Stepanitz discusses the different crosses and herding lines in pretty good detail. Too much inlo to post here but worth the read.
by FerrumGSDs on 15 January 2008 - 18:01
It is breeding true as dominant trait, and since she claims to never of have bred two Panda together, she always gets about 50% panda, through GSD x Panda crosses. More than Anything I think it is about control. I know she can completely control any individual getting into the Panda Gene pool, as she Has an open Registry accepting only the GSD with high qualities she wishes to introduce. I don't think it is a money maker ( I got into GSDs in part for the Solid colors) but as breed " master" she can stop dogs with no OFA or poor quality dogs from entering the Panda gene pool.
You might want to look into horses, as they have a whole bunch of different white spotting effects, (Sabino one where blue eyes are common, along with white socks and Loud Fasial Markings) , Splash, Tobiano Overo, etc etc.
White would mask the spotting for sure, but there is no white close up in the pedigree that I know of. She did have elaborate tests done, and I remember seeing a multitud of certificates for DNA labs performed on her dogs.
http://pandashepherds.com/genetic_panda_info
above the page that talks about the genetics, jc I think you can understand it better than I.
by jc.carroll on 15 January 2008 - 19:01
Ceph,
while white can be the product of white spotting on the S-locus (which results in areas devoid of pigmentation) up to extreme piebaldism as in all-white Dalmations and Great Danes... or it can be a dominant masking gene as in the white GSD [source]. Theoretically white can also be the results of extreme dilution, which would be located on the C-[color]-locus, and not, interestingly enough on the D-[dilution]-locus.
Dominant white is independant of the spotting factor and does not result in spotted dogs. In some species (horses, rodents...) dominant white, when expressed homogynously in an individual is lethal. In mice it represents itself when Ww with white hairs mixed into the colored fur. Expressed homogenously in the aforementioned species "lethal white" results in animals that have normal colored eyes (brown), pink skin, and die before or shortly after birth.
Ferrum,
Thankyou for the link I've been going through it. I'll have to try and find a few other related bits of info to compare it with. It seems on the level though. I wish the pic was zoomable though, and I'd love to find more technical info on the topic. Insofar as horses, I'll have to look into that a bit more.
by Ceph on 15 January 2008 - 19:01
It's not a dominant Maksing Gene...its a recessive masking gene...lol...where is Pod when you need him :p
The Extension Locus is thus :
Em - black Mask
E - no mask but expression of Agouti
e - no black pigment in the coat
Sheila M. Schmutz - a genetecist at a University in Canada recently linked the white coat in GSDs to the homozygous recessive allele at the extension locus which is on the MC1R gene. It's not dominant - which is why when you breed a white to a colored dog that isnt a carrier, you only get colored puppies.
Believe me - the white coat in the GSD is something I am VERY well versed in. Even when they didnt know it was at the extension locus the white coat was still considered recessive - because breeding showed that it was.
White in Horses is in fact dominant - but it is called lethal white overo - and it is one of the patterns in the paint horses - lethal white overo isnt masking - it affects EVERYTHING, while the recessive white in GSDs just affects the fur.
I suggest you read Sheila Schmutz's article - it was published in the Journal of Heredity in September.
~Cate
by Ceph on 15 January 2008 - 19:01
lol - I might add that Mrs. Shaw is very intelligent...but she isnt a scientific source. Sheila Schmutz and the Journal of Heredity are.
~Cate
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