showline bred with workingline - Page 17

 Quote: You little pipsqueek, I've been running with dogs since my wrestling days in college. You don't know shit about real road work. All you know how to do is run your mouth and try to belittle people. We ought to tie your ass to the back of a truck and drag your ass down the road and see how you like it. Keep talking smartass your only embarassing yourself.

Yes of course, but it is abuse right ?? Since your wrestling days ? The all time self abuse champions, wrestlers getting all pussy about road work ??

Can you describe to me real road work ?? I have done half marathons, marathons, and ultra marathons in my younger day, played soccer since I was two, but this real road work of a wrestler, I would like to hear more. I don't remember that much running in wrestling, but there is that cutting weight thing.

I have run dogs behind a truck for as long as I can remember. I don't remember them being real unhappy about the process, but I guess they didn't know it was abuse. They all looked stupid happy to me. after all, I was the kid sitting on the tailgate looking at them. There was no breakage, no dragging down the road, no pavement, so please tell me again about how it is abuse ! ! ! !

By the way, when I was training for my upcoming races or for my soccer team, one of my buddies would ride his bike with me and I had to keep pace. Was that abuse ? LOL

 Our kennel has swiched from showline towards working line in 2003. My husband is a dogtrainer and when he came accros Fedor von Karthago he was verry impressed by this dog's work and looks as well. At that time he has decided to breed our Champion showline female Assa Stress to this male. (Everybody said that he was crazy to make this breeding). From that litter we have kept in our kennel 2 pups :
- a male - FEDOR STRESS www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/476169.html and
a female - FRIDA STRESS www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/428803.html
They are both excelent dogs. Verry good temperament, good and staddy nerves, verry social and easy to handle.
Frida has IPO 1, KKl 1.
Fedor...he has worked all his life (he is 7 already). Fedor has IPO 2, RH T B (civil rescue level B), RH FL B (area search level B), RH L A (avalanche search level A) and also KKl 1. He was part of 6 real search and rescue missions, lots of training camps and trainings, countless dog training demonstration and training shows. So far he has won titles of 2006 Romanian Rescue Champion, 2006 Romanian Champion in Police Border Patrool Dogs (the first and last time when civillians were accepted in this competition).
I am still working with him as a voluntary in The Romanian Association for Rescue Dogs and I am verry pleased with his work. He is verry powerfull and has incredible determination but I must take into consideration that in a couple of years he will need to retire to a mutch easyer life. So...I was thinking that I should start to training another dog next year, because rescue dog training takes a couple of years before a good dog is ready for missions. Now I have to decide what dog will I choose to be my next search and rescue dog. I am thinking to keep a pup from Fedor but, because I love soo mutch this dog, I don't know how mutch of this decission comes from my heart and how mutch from my mind. I can breed our german working line female Hell von Prevent www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/460540.html to Fedor or I cand repeat breeding Hell von Prevent to our slovakian working line male Black Jack Modry Amulet www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/470702.html ( I have seen several pups from this mating and I am verry pleased with their qualityes).
I am looking forward for oppinions in this matter. Thanks.

nostress, that was very intresting reading. thanks for sharing from your experience.

best,
Rik

dayrlehret said "but I am saying no one has the discipline or the resources to make it succeed."

the more you run that yakker, the more your ignorance shows. You have dogs that you don't trial or title, much less breed survey and you are an authority on the GSD. You are offering up advice on what is and is not possible and you have accomplished what, other than buy foundation dogs from breeders who do trial and title, and begin selling pups.

The dog von Lotta posted shows that someone had the "discipline and resources" to produce him.

And you want to debate and educate a breeder who had the "discipline and resources" and also the knowledge to bring arguably one of the best producing working bitches ever to come to the U.S.

You really need to get out of Montana more often and see what is going on in the world.

JMO,
Rik
 

No ONE dog is going to accomplish anything, and NO single breeder.  If you think so, then it just shows your ignorance or refusal to comprehend what I've stated.

I don't know what breeder you're referring to, that "had the "discipline and resources" and also the knowledge to bring arguably one of the best producing working bitches ever to come to the U.S." but that is definitely not the "discipline and resources" I'm talking about.  Anyone can buy what's available, as you so readily have pointed out.

Try reading what I have written, and quit thinking about what you assume.

I've been in Montana for 7 months, not missing a damn thing.  Enjoy :)

 nostress... interesting reply/post.. i too have bred a V rated Fado Karthago progeny to my v rated larus V. batu daughter and produced  v rated progeny , asthetic  in appearnce , good stress levels that were doing full attacks on body suite at 10 months . full out / guards . escape apprehensions. this i wrote of many times on this forum .. BUY.. there are people just locked into their opinions , so sometimes i just waste my breath [ and writing] on these people. i can't help to think when epople state either working or show lines haVE NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE -- EITHER THEY DON'T know GENETICS OR THEY [ WITHOUT OFFENSE ] JUST PLAIN 'OL AND SIMPLE .. IGNORANT

 Thanks RIK and ALPHAPUPP. This is exacty the reason I have posted on this topic and not anywhere elesse. I belive I can have some open minded people here that can share their experience and maybe give me some advice in deciding from where will come my next dog. Because my Fedor is 50% show and 50% working line, despite his working results, he has only sired 2-3 showline females and this is why I don't have anny ideea what he will bring with my german working line female. His sister, Frida Stress, has been mated with Efrahim von Wünschbachtal  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/309058.html and she has produced an amaizing litter, as far as working qualityes. Hilda (security dog in England), Hannibal (protection dog in Romania) and Hansa Stress IPO 3 (Romanian vice Champion in the GDS working championship, vice Champion in Romanian Police Competition) are dogs that make us proud. They were extremely confident, outgoing, shown early attraction to serious protection work and they were verry adaptable to changes.Unfortunately, this male has passed out in the next year after the breeding. Otherwhise I would definitely repeat that breeding and choose my future dog form that litter.

 Sorry ALPHAPUP about messing up your ID .
About Fado ..I think this dog was a mile stone in the working lines. In fact, that whole litter. In time, i have spoked with other people with Karthago line dogs and they where all verry proud of their dogs .

Quote:  I was the kid sitting on the tailgate looking at them…is this abuse?

As long as you are keeping a good keen eye on them, I have no problem with that. That was my main point. But you said in an earlier post that you could care less if you end up breaking a dog. In fact, you made it perfectly clear that this would not bother you in the least. Please enlighten us on this philosophy in training dogs?

Also, let’s try to cut out the swearing if you’re smart enough to do that. This is not the place to be setting yourself free with such antics. There could potentially be ladies and children reading this crap. Do you have any civilized manners or thoughts for other peoples? You should be ashamed of yourself, but I know guys like you feel no shame.

dayrle, I have read your posts and I think you have made a few valid points. This is a worth while thread and I am very interested in hearing from knowledgeable and experienced people as to why they would do this, why they would not do this or they did this and here are the results.

But inevitably, these kind of threads turn into whizzing contests, with people treating others as if they are stupid, their dogs are crap, their training is crap, their vision of the GSD is crap.

As far as breeding/buying, I have absolutely no interest in breeding. For approx. $5000, I can send my V rated kkl1 bitch to Germany for breeding. Maybe she takes, maybe not. Maybe she produces well, maybe not. For half that price, plus traveling expenses, I can buy a pup that I know meets my expectations, that someone else has taken the chances on.

But in the end, while some have a never ending list of excuses for not doing things the correct way, there are others out there producing dogs such as this one.

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/492746.html

A V21 placing at the sieger would qualify any dog as a "show" dog.

Best,
Rik

Just want to weigh in on some comments that don't depict the whole picture, IMO. Marko, Mutz Canto and Quanto were pillars of the "showring in the mid seventies. As the color requirement for winning changed Marko, then eventually Mutz were no longer primary parts of the show world. There are some workinglines that are offshoots of these two dogs.(Marko and Mutz).  But there are many many more workinglines(German), that don't go through Marko or Mutz. There are NO current showlines that don't go through Canto/Quanto. Also, its not that Quanto or Canto themselves were terrible dogs,(for the truly knowledgable, why didn't Canto go VA), its the insane continued breeding back and forth to these same dogs for thirty five years WITHOUT bringing in the blood of the otherlines that has created a genetic saturation that is detrimental to the breed. The people in France who used Canto/Quanto in their dogs also have CONTINUALLY mixed strong working lines in the equation so this type of saturation has not happened and lo and behold these dogs work at a top level. This isn't complicated people, but as long as we don't focus on the real issues the situation will remain. Look at the coefficient of breeding on certain lines and you will began to see the picture. The heck with opinions deal with facts, look at the coefficient of breeding on great working dogs of the past twenty five years and you will see a distinct pattern. This isn't feelings or opinions this is fact. France's approach to using all the lines "continually" is better suited to work if you want to mix the lines. You can't mix a showline with a workingline, pick a good specimen and then go back to showlines again and get balance or genetic diversity. This is often what people do. Its about balance, and right now the balance is lacking and until there is more balance then the extremes will continue.