showline bred with workingline - Page 1

Most dogs ive seen with showline and workingline parents seem more agressive. I have also talked to other trainers that have noticed that too. You get good looks and great drives all in one. I was just wanting to get kind of info if anyone else has noticed this and also wondering why alot of people say its bad to breed the two.

You end up with a dog that is not either. Not top S/l, not top W/L. If what you want is a pet, then fine.

Take a look at Javir if what you want is a V rated W/L dog. And yes, I did and was very pleased with my Javir daughter.

Best,
Rik

Not everyone wants a working dog that is a top sport prospect, Rik. There's a huge area between "just a pet" and "going to the WUSVs"--and there's a lot to be said for a stable, easy-to-train dog with sound nerves and good drives and nothing over the top. --the type of dog who can do schutzhund or herding or SAR or agility or AKC obedience or all of the above. And maybe that dog will never go to the nationals, but he can be a very good club dog and a great dog to work and to learn with.

That said, all too often, when you see working dogs bred to show dogs, the parents are not quality representatives of their bloodlines. The individual dogs being bred matter as much if not more than the bloodlines they come from.

Christine
blackthornkennel.com

Smith, you might want to get a little more data if that is your perspective.  What Rik posted is not far off the mark.  Many folks advertise their showline/working line crosses as "the golden middle" but these dogs are not excelling in either sport/work or show arena.  The types were developed with different goals in mind.  If you want to excel in conformation, get a showline or you won't have a chance to place high in the ring.  If you want to excel in the sport/work area, get a working line. 

For the folks that are just "out for fun" well you can do SchH with a mutt so it doesn't matter anyway.  However, breeding for mediocrity, or to satisfy the needs of the "casual enthusisast" is not doing the breed any favors.  Watering down the breed to satisfy puppy customers who can't handle a real working dog - no good comes of that.  But that is a hot topic for another conversation.

The bottom line is that you just don't see top handlers and breeders in either venue going for these "crosses".  These are people who shop the world for dogs, who can often afford any price.  People with a wealth of knowlege.  So who's buying these crosses or breeding them?  Nobody at the top who has serious goals and ambitions.  Think about those implications...

Very good advice, once again Yvette.  I think the breeders who have an understanding of the breed tend to breed for multiple traits, and ths improves their chances of producing a more balanced shepherd as opposed to a shepherd who only excels in only a limited number of traits.  I don't see any reason why a showline dog can not be bred to a working line dog to produce a high competition dog but the probability of that happening is low.  The general thinking is that a litter is an average (health, working ability, body type, longevity, athletism, etc.) of the father's side and the mother's side, but there are rare exceptions to this rule because once in a while you could get dominant producers who produce their type.  Since it is rare to see a showline litter where all the dogs have excellent working ability, and a working line litter where all the dogs have excellent body type, the average of the combination is rarely the best of both worlds.  Some kennels in Germany have combined showline dogs with working line dogs and have achieved excellent results but it generally happens over two to three generations and the breeder has to nurture his plan in the first and the second generation by placing those dogs with good trainers where the dogs get a fair shaking.  We don't have many such people and a lot of people have a preconcieved notion that the combination does not work, so we will never find out from our local breedings whether it can produce good results or not.

Ajay Singh
www.ajaysingh.com 

Essentially this thread could easily be named "black-&-tan bred with sable".  Back when a lot of us were kids, there were no WL/SL split.  A GSD had to look good and work well to be top shelf.  When the powers running the breed pushed for "black & tans" as the ideal in the show ring, the breeders of sables and blacks found themselves squeezed out and had to devise their own little competition and turf.  Therein lies the almost ilogical split between the SL and the WL where the breeders opted to breed away from the other camp's standard.

While it is true that many who breed SL dogs with WL dogs may be doing it with mixed results, there have been examples of dogs with both wl and sl that have performed well.  There are many working line dogs that have Frei von der Gugge in their pedigree, as well as in Show lines.   In order to breed a top flight dog, you need top flight parents.

I find it disapointing when I read opinions that make the breed seem  elitist instead of encouraging new and young owners to get into owning and training GSD's.  If I were considering a GSD as my first dog, and ran into such patronizing condescension, I might consider buying anything else but a GSD.

Granted, those "at the top" of either the WL or the SL hierarchy of breeders won't breed these crosses because it is not in their best pecuniary interests to have someone breed a dog that is that versatile. The basic implications involved are economic in nature and have little if anything to do with stewardship of the breed.

Thanx for that comment Charlie319. I agree with that statment. I am glad I didnt visit this site before I purchased my pup last fall.

I agree with Charlie but what do i know i am pretty new.  I just saw a beautiful sable pup from Oswald of Kenelm.  i just cant seem to find the mothers pedigree on here Vonwerdenfels Wickie.  Hope i am not doing anything wrong by putting these names on here. 

I have a breeder acquaintance who is making such a cross. The s/l female is titled, V rated and KKL1. The w/l male is very good structure and also KKL1. Also multiple V's on the W/L side. She is very knowledgeable and does have a plan and a goal for doing this. I do expect she will be successful given time.

Best,
Rik

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