by Sunsilver on 14 September 2023 - 17:09
Klossbruhe, I think the Martins ruined the showlines. It's not just the conformation, it's also the temperament. It's been extremey watered down.
I agree with what Koos Hassing said in his article, which wasn't all that long ago (2010). It's been posted before here... give me a few minutes to find it.
by Sunsilver on 14 September 2023 - 17:09
Let's see if these links still work:
YES!! They do! May God rest his soul... :'(
by Sunsilver on 14 September 2023 - 18:09
I'm going to quote the most important part of the article:
The founder of our breed did not make this statement for nothing: “Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog for I have struggled all my life for that aim!” Many developments are naturally subject to social changes, but the principle has to be maintained or better said, the goal has to remain the same. And that has to be thought about carefully.
Why this prelude you may ask? Friday evening, after the courage test at the “Hauptzuchtschau” in Ulm was over I got an alarmed phone call from a sport friend who was there and told me that many of the SchH 2 and even more of the SchH 3 dogs did not pass protection.
Sunday evening I calculated that 63 males and 49 females failed. Furthermore, we are talking about exclusively KKL 1 dogs here who had received the rating of “TSB pronounced” in their ZtP/Körung.
I doubt that the number of failures had ever been that high. My information showed that protection may have been judged marginally harder but not significantly harder than in years past. I was even told that had the helper work been consistent for all the dogs there would have been even more failures.
There were glaring differences between dogs from performance lines and those from show lines. OK, that may not be such a big deal, but it clearly accentuates how big the differences are.
Only a few years ago I myself was a witness to the way protection was handled at the “Hauptzuchtschau”. I came to the conclusion that some assessments were at the very bottom of the rating “pronounced”, some even below.
Dogs who came off the sleeve during the attack on handler still got a rating high enough to remain in the competition. In individual cases apparently the manner in which the dogs prevented the attack (energetic gripping is desired) was of secondary importance. Obviously some things had improved somewhat, but it has to be said.
It appears as if the top people in the SV, who got there due to political circumstance, chose this result, and everyone seems OK with that. One would think based on that that the general public is also satisfied with the result! Keep going that way.
In my opinion, this can never be the right solution. The movement in this direction already became apparent years ago. But it is exactly like judging one’s own affairs, , it is rejected in society and politically and no significant improvement can be brought about.
by Klossbruhe on 14 September 2023 - 19:09
Koos Hassing was not exactly a fan of show line dogs of any kind to put it mildly. I was at the sieger shows that were held in Ulm and I did not see any dog that came off and stayed off the sleeve being allowed to continue and those that came off once and then rebit could not get a V but only SG which did not mean sehr gut to say the least..
There are many factors that have contributed to the current situation. In the first place, the lines split apart before the Martins. And I would repeat that the BSZS is first and foremost not about protection but about conformation. This is not to say that the competitors should not be able to do a satisfactory defense against attack on handler and courage test. However, the performance does not have to be what it is at the Bundessiegerprufung. Schutzhund IGP is a sport and very few of the so-called working lines dogs at the Bundessiegerprufung can go into it cold. All of these events take place in strange venues that the dogs have never experienced, i.e. in large stadiums with strange helpers. As a result, most of these dogs have to practice beforehand or many will not engage. Dogs for the police and military are trained differently. An IGP dog is not a police or military dog. The working lines people seem to have lost sight of this. Back in the early 90s Working lines people used to come to the Sieger Show and sit in the bleachers just to boo even perfectly good protection performances...
In Stephanitz's time, GSDs for the most part were not living in urban and suburban situations and life was very different. Even today, you do not see too many in German cities like Munich, Berlin and Frankfurt.
As for temperament, GSDs back in the day very frequently had sharp temperaments and were suspicious of most people. Today, this cannot be tolerated by society and the temperament has changed for good reason. "Make sure my dog remains a working dog." How many people need or want working dogs. How many people are there who make their living as shepherds. Even in Stephanitz's time this was disappearing and he went to the Berlin criminal police.
Now days, people want GSDs as companions and as pets. How many people other than the military, police and schools for the blind are needing dogs to work. Still, we require dogs in the working class at the sieger show to have passed tracking tests, albeit not real world ones, obedience tests as well as protection test and that is something although it may not be enough for you. But do other breeds require the dogs that win their beauty contests to have passed such tests?
I disagree that Hermann and Walter Martin ruined the GSD. They simply followed the forces of late 20th century Western society. They created a dog for the general public. The general public no longer needs the dogs of yesteryear with their temperaments. Back in the day, in the States, GSDs were by most people simply called Police Dogs not GSDs because very few people outside of the police owned such dogs. If that is what you want, then only the police and military should have GSDs, and breeding should be restricted to create animals for those purposes. The German Shepherd Dog is still a working dog as witnessed by its uses in the military, police, search and rescue and guide dogs for the blind. But now, it is also a dog which can be used in a sport setting and do many things beyond IGP. It is can also be a dog for the general public. No longer does every GSD have to be doing some kind of work.
by Sunsilver on 15 September 2023 - 13:09
I'm sure you will understand if some of us don't agree with that. A well bred GSD should be capable of being a family companion, and still have the discernment and protective instincts to protect the family and home.
The GSD temperament of the American dogs has deteriorated so much that handlers at some shows have asked the organizers to turn off or turn down the volume on the PA system, as it was causing their dogs to spook. I've also heard of German show lines with temperaments just as weak as that.
I am very glad that Carmen and others fought hard to have a temperament test introduced for the showline dogs in Canada. The have to pass it before they can get a 'select' conformation rating.
by charlie319 on 16 September 2023 - 14:09
And, yes. I have a bee in my bonnet because the BSZS is running a show. Usher is not the best dog out there. He missed the long bite last year and these "showrunners" gave him the VA1... Granted, the cream of GSD genetics has been systematically sold to the PRC...
While there are some WL owners who can be total asses in their interactions with WL owners, and vice-versa, not all of them are, and many will help in developing your dog's protection skills. WL and SL will be around for the foreseeable future. We might as well work together for the breed because the same problems that have plagued SL are now entrenching in WL... I'm from the school of thought that both are/were of the same breed and there's a lot we, as individuals can do at the ground level to shape the breed club behavior. The first is "stop buying what's on the shelf". If your prefered breeder has Remo stock, demurr and ask them to let you know when he is breeding to x or y lines, or be bold and ask for Remo Free... If it happens often enough, they will start to use other lines. If you breed, use alternative males that are not linked to Remo. Particularly if you already have Remo bitches.
And the problem with Remo is that unless you load the other side of the pedigree with aggression, he just doesn't produce dogs with aggression. In 2009, his short season he was mated to 4 VA bitches and a bevy of very good V bitches like Ulli and Oprah v Aurelius... What may have given them a hint was the breeding to Quasti v Haness... Unlike the others, this litter out of a Baru v Haus Yu daughter did not appear to struggle getting their aggression... The one breeding to Remo probably doomed Dakota v Heinrichplatz... Rani v Arlett only produced an SG (SG7) male... Vegas daughter, Betty v Kuckucksland produced 1 V male with Remo with a rather pedestrian record, https://schaeferhunden.eu/winsis_x/winsisshowdog.php?bb=&id=2241606&tp=3
The same bitch, Alisha that gave us Hugh and Joker v Eichenplatz, managed to produce Untox who got an SG17 among young dogs and was bred to a few V rated females, and produced two V rated "also-rans" in 2012...
By and large, Remo has fallen short on production. His better progeny are all ways "mobbed up" as in Omen, Willy, Mondo, Usher... Then there's the Gary, Gamba and Gayla VA's...scuttlebutt was that Gamba was assured the VA1 for Gary pulling out and paving the way for Willy...
Your rationale about police dogs is asinine. The "police dogs" were popular family dogs in the 1920's
https://blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2023/05/americas-popular-dog-breeds-1900-1960/" the very same skill set of "herding sheep and protecting flocks from predators", plus it's intelligence and loyalty, made the GSD a great family dog even then.
The Martin Brothers probably maintained their grip on the SV on the promise to make the German Breeders money from the Japanese, Arabs and Americans by turning the dog into a widget. Much like all the SV regimes since. Now, we are late to stop that, but we can at least refuse to play along TODAY.
Now, if you have a Remo dog, I feel for you... I have 3, and bought the male for one of the females (for a different linebreeding, but that's no longer likely). Luckily, they are via Omen, and one has a Yukon daughter bred to Remo, Schumann v Tronje and a Landos (÷aaaaLatini) littermate to offset Remo, and the other is via Gary and is linebred on Irok Karanberg, Xtra v Tronje & Flip v Arlett as well as the S litter (Sambo & Santana). The male has Furbo and Piste Trophe to offset Remo...
Opus is not remotely the equal of Omen, who is arguably Remo's best offspring. Another decent option is Pacco vom Langenbungert. In my opinion, Omen and Pacco (as well as his brother, Pepe) are "good" Remo progeny that has reproduced well and should not be rejected out of hand if Remo is what you like. I never actually liked Remo. I like Vegas, but not the excessive breeding on him.
I'm not even going to touch American,or British lines... They've been altered beyond redemption. When aesthetes gain control of a working animal, vary soon it won't work. It's not what they reward. What do we reward?
by Klossbruhe on 16 September 2023 - 17:09
Like you, I have showline dogs. But unlike you, I do not have a Remo dog. And unlike you I do not have an Arlett dog or Vegas dog, or Ballack dog, or a Mondo dog. I do not have dogs from SV breeder judges. Hans Peter Rieker and Leonhard Schweikert were good friends of mine and I learned a tremendous amount from them, but I never took dogs from them. I let the wealthy marks in the midway who wanted the prestige of owning a Bad Boll or Agrigento dog pony up. Good and knowledgeable breeders though they were, they had specific goals for their breeding programs in mind..fame and profit. Rieker even pointed me in the direction of good local breeders around Aichelberg and thanks to him I got a very nice dog out of one of them. You talk about optics, but clearly you are obsessed with dogs from big breeders with famous ancestors...Why bother with them since you already know it is all politics and money.
All of the people you mention with the exception of Carl Fuller were and or are big time breeders...think $$$. But if you are really familiar with breeders in Germany, you will stay away from those people. There are many small breeders of showline dogs without any of the bloodlines you mention. But unless you speak German, and you go over there and most importantly you take the time to know people, you will not find these average breeders. Most Americans don't do their homework, don't speak German and don't go frequently to Germany. It is too hard or too much trouble. It is easier to rely on middlemen or dog brokers or friends of friends and buy dogs sight unseen, except for photos. Sure, its easy to talk to the biggies directly--- van Dorssen, Brauch, Wischala, Osmann, Scheerer, Messler, Niedergassl, Hohmann et.al. all speak English and will pick up the phone when you call and will be only too happy to send you dogs they have no use for. They will talk about all of the big dogs one or two generations back in the pedigree. Big dogs that got where they got because of money and politics...
If you are really interested in dogs without Remo and the other turkeys you mention, why not go to the Sieger Show on Thursday and Friday and look at ring 3 and 4 where there will be some really fine dogs from owners and breeders who could not afford to hire a well-known handler or travel to all the Landesgruppen shows to get their dog looked at by the judge or are not willing to get involved with Schmiergeld. As a rule, only the dogs who make it to the first and possibly the second ring have been seen by the judge before the Sieger Show.
When I started going to the Sieger Shows back in the early 90s, there would be 300-350 dogs in the working classes, six or seven rings. No judge, with only 2 days to do it, is going to be able adequately look at and place the dogs. This holds true even today with just 3 rings. Fetten, Rieker and Stiegler all told me, if the judge has not seen the dog before the Sieger Show, and there is no famous handler or money involved, it is not getting out of the 3rd ring. Club shows are the place to see good dogs with diverse pedigrees because the locals who are breeding for their OGs and not money and glory, know who is producing good quality animals.
by Sunsilver on 16 September 2023 - 20:09
Close linebreeding on the Fero lines has become a problem with the working line dogs, creating dogs with hectic drive and no off switch. Unfortunately, many breeders don't see a problem and are continuing to breed to these lines. It's almost impossible to find dogs that are Fero-free.
by charlie319 on 17 September 2023 - 06:09
Now, I don't have the money to go to BSZS. I leave that trip to the competitors, a few US breeders who go buy a V male to stud (and little else) and those who go thinking something will rub off. Obviously you do, or did. I dont need to go to the BSZS unless I'm taking a dog. And, even then, I think avoiding litters by dogs who fail to produce temperament is a more effective tool to nudge The market in a better direction. The SV dictates what wins at BSZS which dictates what the breeders breed, and buyers buy what there is... But, what if buyers say: "no. I'm looking for a dog with better temperament", not an oversized lap dog... Call me when you breed it. Will the breeders breed what the SV dictates, or what they can sell? Brand name only goes so far.
All the breeders you mention are from the Martin's era. The Martins set the stage for what goes on today. It is what they knew. It is kind of concerning to think what the GSD will be like in a couple of decades, given present SV tactics.
I agree with you that local shows are better, and we should all support them... Assuming they want to be supported. Some clubs are content to remain small... But that's altogether another discussion.
by charlie319 on 17 September 2023 - 06:09
Fero was truly "whored". Bred to great bitches as well as to whatever covered the stud fee. Seeing him on a pedigree is not always a good thing. I'd rather see Korbelbach and Mohningweise (always muck up that spelling)... IMPO, the aggression problems stem from breeding for a lesser temperament. A confident dog, while vigilant and aloof, should not be sharp or out of control once agitated or engaged. A confident dog may not follow a weak handler's commands. A weak dog will... Also. It's easier to breed for physical variables than temperamental ones. Thus we have the obsession with physiological perfection with little attention to temperament.
To some, this out of control aggression is desirable... What can I tell you. The world is full of foolish people.