by Salmusehel on 11 August 2021 - 06:08
I am hoping that someone with knowledge can help me better understand my dogs pedigree.
I have already acquired two beautiful male pups and I love them to death. I am not interested in participating in any type of shows/sports, they are family pets and companions.
However, it would be nice to know what the potential is and what to look out for health wise.
For starters, i now know that there is extremely tight line breeding (3-2 on two dogs) + some dogs in the pedigree are descendants of the "dominant black" line that came out of russia.
Keep in mind that when I first purchased the dogs, i was given a totally different pedigree. I recently found that out.
Anyways, this is the pedigree...
Any input is appreciated.
by GSCat on 14 August 2021 - 03:08
Looked at the PDB page and saw Night Royal Fon Fyurer needs breed book and registration number.
Both parents are registered UKU Most likely Ukranian Kennel Union, so likely your dogs are also registered there, unless the original puppy cards were sent to them to get an export pedigree and then the litter and/or individual puppies/dogs registered elsewhere. English language website of Ukranian Kennel Union http://uku.com.ua/english/index.html
I used Google translate to put the English name/translation/transliteration into Ukranian and got
НІЧ КОРОЛІВСЬКИЙ ФОН ФЮРЕР
This is obviously not an "official" or even "competent" translation, so original (assumed) Ukranian name could be spelled differently.
I can't find a place on Ukranian Kennel Union English website to input either version of the name, and don't read Ukranian, so I can't use the Ukranian language website to try. Assuming you registered your dogs, you (probably) have the needed information to get the breed book and registration number for Night Royal Fon Fyurer put into PDB. Fantom76 (mod) can help https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.read?post=910936-akc-members-important-read-entering-dog-pedigrees
You said two different pedigrees. It may be that one is the Ukranian Kennel Union UKU export pedigree and the other is the pedigree from wherever the litter was registered outside of Ukraine/wherever your dogs are currently registered, or maybe even the original puppy card. Transliterations/translations of names between languages, which use different alphabets, can lead to what appear to be different pedigrees, especially when more than one registering authority/organization involved. On the Ukranian Kennel Union English webpage, there's information about the titles the parents earned.
Looking at the pedigree, there are dogs from several different registration authorities/organizations, so you may have to look at each one's website to learn about any titles a specific dog has.
Sorry can't help any better.
by Salmusehel on 14 August 2021 - 07:08
Let me clarify, before purchasing my puppies, the person responsible for importing them to my country gave me a different pedigree meaning he told me the litter came from a whole seperate line if that makes sense.
I recently learned this and he apologized for the mix up and send me the the above mentioned sire and dam and the puppy registration cards.
So i know that my puppies are from the above mentioned breeding result.
by Hundmutter on 14 August 2021 - 12:08
Hi Salmusehel. Okay, so can we please clarify further: you now have papers for a litter from a sire & dam that the importer (on behalf of the breeder) has told you are the correct parents, and this supplants original info you were given by them, or that breeder, for the two pups you have bought. So you are trusting this intermediary - who has apologised - that this was a one-off genuine mistake to give you the wrong information / paperwork at first ?
Is this such a hugely productive breeder that this sort of mix-up could be easily made because this importer is selling so many puppies on their behalf ? It really is not an easy mistake for a breeder to make, otherwise, IMO. And therefore not particularly easy for others in the chain. Unless the first lot of info was not only wrong as to the pups' lineage, but as to the breeder they came from, too ? I'd be more suspicious than you seem to be, certainly.
But if we assume you now have the correct papers and an accurate pedigree, exactly what sort of understanding of that pedigree are you looking for ? What sort of questions do you need answered ? You may get more help if you are a bit more specific !
E.G. - Do you want info about health tests ? Which of the dogs came out of this line of Black Russians ? What the sports titles mean ? Certainly there are members here who can give you some answers on some of those - although these will only help if your dogs are the ones to which the replaced pedigree applies.
by Salmusehel on 15 August 2021 - 05:08
Thanks for your reply.
To answer your questions,
The importer brings in a lot of different breeds from different breeders across europe and more specifically, Ukraine.
When I contacted him looking for GSD puppies, he showed me several litters from different breeders and sent me links from this website to show me the sires and dams and their lineage. So there was a mix up as to which litter belonged to which lineage from his side. I chose 2 male puppies from the pictures he sent me. 2 weeks after receiving the puppies, I contacted him to get the puppy registration cards as I did not receive them with the puppies. This was where I saw that the puppies were from a different litter than the one I chose, he apologized and offered to take the puppies back and provide me with the correct ones that I initally chose. By that time, I had already gotten attached to the fluffy troublemaker and i refused the offer to return them.
That being said, I totally agree that the whole thing is very suspicious, especially that the initially chosen litter came from a better lineage.
But as mentioned before, i love them regardless, and my questions about the pedigree is basically to better understand what I should expect from the puppies health wise and what kind of potential they have. Additionally, if anyone has more information about the kennel where the puppies came from.
As for the black russians, i traced the lineage back to goya.
I also ordered an embark dna + health test.
by Hundmutter on 15 August 2021 - 10:08
Thank you Salmusehel. I hope somebody here knows the history of dogs related to these and can help you further. I have 2 general points to make on the pedigree. Because I do not have the hands-on knowledge of any directly related dog(s), you must decide how much value you choose to put on my comments:
A good deal of this breeding is the Von Fichtenschlag dogs on both sides. This is an established (West) German Show kennel. There is probably quite a lot of 'German S/L' breeding from lesser kennels here too, not known to me, but modern German dogs are used in the Eastern European countries by breeders today - a LOT. Not sure how this sits with what little I have heard over the years about these black dogs from a Russian source, and personally I have yet to be fully convinced of a Dominant Black gene even existing. Maybe if & when I see some more detail authenticating these breedings in Ukraine & elsewhere I can become converted, but that day has not yet arrived.
What I believe has happened in the 'evolution' of these 'black' lines brings me to my 2nd general observation:
There has been deliberate breeding in many countries to produce all-black, mainly long coated, GSDs, because they sell to the public. They do not sell too well to experienced people who are involved in the formal, serious, side of the breed (breeding & Showing to the FCI Breed Standard; working the dogs in IGP; producing dogs for Law Enforcement etc). [There are people who like a Black, or very dark Sable, dog out of aesthetic preference, but they are primarily much more concerned about physical structures, health, and temperament / trainability issues, and so colour preference comes a long way behind when they are looking to buy.] These dogs can however sell extremely well to members of the general public who have an admiration of the GSD breed, mainly from afar, and who are impressed with the look of fluffy puppies in a less usual colour. This has happened in my own country, the UK, for decades; and it seems to me it has been happening for a while now in what was the 'Eastern Bloc'. I strongly suspect it happens also in the USA. It SEEMS to be less a 'thing' in the rest of Western Europe at present ...
Given that it has been producing a lot of stock 'just for Pet buyers', this trend has inevitably led to the case that many of these breeders don't use the best, most proven, bloodlines. They do use some good dogs - sure - but they also heavily use dogs they know carry the genetic material to consistently produce a lot of pups of the colour (s) - and possibly coat lengths - they think they can sell most of. And what happens when you breed first for colour (as with breeding specifically to get any other one point) is that you often lose a lot of other features out of the lines of dogs you produce. This also can mean you end up 'breeding in' things you really would not want, because you are having to do a lot more than usual 'inbreeding' to keep the money coming.
Turning to the bitch ' Lorki ', doubled up on in this pedigree, unless you have further & better particulars on any paperwork you now have, there is no record of her HD or ED (or DM or any other) results / status. It is far from unknown with dogs bred in the way I've described to not have the basic health tests done, coupled with which there are some illnesses there is no test for, as yet, one of these being Idiopathic Epilepsy - which is unfortunately not uncommon in dogs produced to the pattern I have described. That is not to say that your puppies will definitely carry Epilepsy, but it is maybe a greater risk, if their breeding has come from that route. LIkewise more risk of eg hip or elbow joint problems.
You can do a Site Search for some info held on PDB about dogs that have turned out to be epileptic, and some details on the way these were bred. And how they are to live with.
You sound as though you like the puppies you've got very much and I do hope they continue to be everything you could wish for, with no troubles of the sort I have described. I send you every good wish for luck with them & that they have a long and healthy life. But I hope I have also impressed on you that there is value in not just believing in the sales blurb but in researching both bloodlines and breeders BEFORE you commit to buy any pup in the future, so that you have the answers to your questions in advance of purchase ?
by Salmusehel on 15 August 2021 - 11:08
What you wrote was a lot of help and I really appreciate your kind words.
In terms of researching both bloodlines, that exactly what I did to my best knowledge at the time.
This is where the litter I was originally told came from: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=2793782&mother=3068705.
From what I could see at the time, the blood lines in the above mentioned pedigree seemed pretty solid to me and thats what made me buy the pups.
All in all, they are family pets/companions and will only be trained in off leash obedience at the max.
I just wanted to know what "could have been" if I wanted to do any sort of sports with them.
Again thanks a lot!
by Hundmutter on 15 August 2021 - 12:08
I can't tell you anything about the lesser German kennels' dogs, (maybe someone else here knows these kennel names better) but I can tell you that while the v. Fichtenschlag dogs aren't all that known for winning in Working circles world-wide, there have been exceptions; and certainly the dogs are generally capable in the WUSV style of Breed competition that incorporates IGP (Schutzhund as once was). So they should be more than capable of the basics, whatever some US Working people say in derogation of the German sport element. They are also correct to the Standard as most modern exhibitors see that; and the kennel is certainly in demand here in the UK as a source of studs and brood bitches. Here we have less separation between SL and WL , so our breeders are trying to work with the 'whole dog' ( i.e. a pretty one that can work.) My experience and knowledge is limited to the Western European kennels in the most part, so I cannot help you with all those other strains of dog present in this pedigree. Hope that others can. Remember the further away the dogs are in generations, the less genetic influence they can usually have on the pups.
Have to say that if these pups were bred for colour more than anything else, well, those sort of breeders are not usually well known for participation in hundsport any more than they'll often pay out for health tests. And if dogs are not bred to be Working 'podium dogs', they do not often become Working Champions.