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by Blitzen on 14 August 2014 - 14:08
"Breedable" is the defining word, isn't it?
by bzcz on 14 August 2014 - 14:08
Nope, it is just a piece of the puzzle to understand the dog as a whole.
By itself it doesn't provide enough information to be a stand alone breed worthiness test.
There was an effort years ago in the US to make it so but thankfully that effort failed.
by susie on 14 August 2014 - 15:08
Blitzen, you are right "Breedable" is the defining word, isn't it?
BZCZ: I hate to disagree with Susie. I generally like and agree with everything she says but in this case I have to disagree with her.
BZCZ, I said "The BH was never used as a test for "breedable temperament".", so you don´t need to disagree with me ... 
You just have to distinguish between the BH and breed worthiness, not more, not less. This test is not about working abilities, and this test is not about drives, it´s simply about education and socialization - as you said a "companion test", adapted by a lot of breed clubs, adapted by thhe German regulatory agencies ( known as "Augsburger Modell" ) because the dog in question doesn´t need to be a working dog, no bitework, no pressure, only obedience and socialization...
Do they test temperament? In connection to socialization yes ( at least they try, but in reality it´s about education / socialization only ) - in connection to breed worthiness NO.
by bzcz on 14 August 2014 - 15:08
YAY, I don't disagree with Susie after all!!! 
by mufman63 on 15 August 2014 - 17:08
Guess I need to read up more on the temperament test and how it is scored. Our dogs come and go to the mechanic's shop and they are used to being around people, tools, equipment, impact guns. They are definitely sound-proof and don't flinch at gunshots, either. And umbrellas don't phase them, either. And they have had much practice discerning true threats. We are considering hauling her and another 8 hours to St Louis for the nationals just to find a judge to get the test done, but if they aren't going to pass it anyway for lack of fear, then maybe it's just not worth it. Makes me feel like throwing my hands in the air. My female is training for her working title, hips good, elbows normal, DM clear. She is scheduled for eye cerf, patella and heart. Would CHIC her in a heartbeat, but beating my head against a wall trying to find a temperament test is driving me nuts.
I am guessing that regardless of whether or not the BH is satisfactory for testing temperament (or any other certified tests), that the parent club will not recognize it because they don't recognize titles from outside the AKC (and maybe not even the WDA soon).
I did write the head of the temperament testers and he did try to find something within the region. He even followed through a month later and pointed me to a club that was going to have it, but upon contacting the club, they said no, they were not going to offer it. I have approached a club with a trial, but it is a small club and they have enough expenses as it is. I do like the idea of getting a group of people together who need it and getting a judge here just for that. Will have to investigate that possibility. To be able to get this done for all the dogs that we train with, in a convenient place, really sounds like a good solution.
The three main problems I have with the test in general are:
1. Although some temperment can be considered inherited, I would prefer CHIC to be strictly health-test related addressing the predominant problems of the breed today.
2. The temperament of a dog has the potential to change greatly throughout its life depending on training, socialization, exposure, environment, etc. So my one year old might pass with flying colors now, and what if when it is 3 years old it has a totally different adult temperament? So with environmental and age changes, how accurate can the test really be and therefore how critical to the database?
3. There are dogs who are highly civil who are purposefully bred back into lines to help increase civility and drives, especially in the area of police dogs and personal protection. These dogs would never be able to pass the temperament test, yet they might have solid genetics otherwise. How is it beneficial in any way, shape or form to put a civil dog through a test you know it won't pass just so you can attain the CHIC?
I believe in health testing, I believe in stable temperaments. I even believe that the experience of going through the test is valuable and worthwhile. To me, it sounds logical that tests from other sources should be admissable (other qualified testers, even the BH), but for them to be REQUIRED for a genetic database seems more like the parent club being interested in finding a way to have a source of income through the CHIC requirements than to expand the genetic database for genuine health purposes and intent.
by Blitzen on 15 August 2014 - 20:08
http://www.showgsd.org/tc.html
If you are an GSDCA member, you can generate a petition to allow the ATTS test in lieu of the GSDCA test. The procedure to do that is in the By-Laws, a copy of which is on GSDCA.ORG.
Breed clubs are not compensated for their participation in the program.
Why do you think "lack of fear" would prevent a dog from passing the GSDCA test? Have you ever watched this test? The dogs I've seen fail do not fail because of a lack of fear, they fail because they over reacted to the friendly stranger, failed to walk over the plastic and flatened crate and went ballistic when confronted by the threatening stranger. If ASL's can pass, I would think most German dogs should be able to.
by Blitzen on 16 August 2014 - 14:08
Purpose & Objectives of the Temperament Test
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This article lists the objectives of the exercises in the GSDCA Temperament Test, their objectives, and a brief summation of each exercise. This should be reviewed not only by the handlers but also by the club helpers for each one of the stations. Behavior Toward Strangers: objective to measure the dog’s reaction to strangers in a non-threatening situation.Neutral Stranger: This test is to simulate a typical street situation. The stranger will carry on a conversation with you, but will not make overtures to the dog. Reaction To Aural Stimuli (Noise): objective to measure alertness to aural stimuli and the degree of investigative behavior toward the stimuli.Can-rattling: After the rattling begins, the dog is allowed to approach the blind to investigate the source of the noise. As the dog comes around the blind to discover the source of the noise and investigate the can, the dog is given 20 seconds to make a close inspection. DOG MAY BE ENCOURAGED by the using phrases like “what’s that?” or “find it”. Reaction To Visual Stimuli: objective to measure the dog’s reaction to sudden visual stimuli, degree of investigative behavior and startle recovery.Umbrella Test: Handler and dog proceed toward the assistant sitting and when the dog is about 3’ (no closer) from the tip of the umbrella, it will be opened directly toward the dog. The open umbrella is then lowered and rested on the ground while the assistant retains the handle in his hand. He dog is allowed to move forward (with encouragement if necessary) to investigate the umbrella. It is the recovery that is judged. Footing Test: objective to measure the dog’s reaction to unusual footing.Footing Test: Handler and dog approach a strip of polyethylene and proceed directly across an exercise pen laid flat on the ground. Aggressive Stranger: objective to measure the dog’s capacity to recognize and react in a positive, guarding manner to a potentially threatening situation and, in the event of a threat, to react in an aggressive, confident manner.Self-protective/Aggressive Reaction: this has three parts; the entrance of the stranger, the strangers approach to the dog and handler, and the threatening gestures by the “weird stranger”. The dog’s reaction to each is assessed and, if a positive response, the helper will proceed.
The Temperament Committee welcomes any questions that you may have concerning the temperament test. We also strongly encourage clubs to hold temperament tests in conjunction GSDCA. Please contact us to arrange for a test in your area. |
by Smiley on 18 August 2014 - 14:08
My two cents.....brought my WL dog to GSDCA club test. She aced it. What did I see in some dogs......timid behavior towards friendly stranger; avoidanace of noise stimuli; overreaction to gunshot; execssive fear of umbrella pop; refusal/hesitation to walk on strange surfaces; fearul reaction to agressive stranger or no reaction. I did zero prep work before test. Same thing when I brought her for Therapy Dog test. Tested on a whim with zero prep and she didnt blink at crutches, walkers, wheel chairs (no exposure to any prior). Temperament is temperament when it is just left to be without conditioning. And yes, socialization plays a part but not entirely. example, you can have a very well socialized dog who is still afraid of thunder. Would i breed that dog, personally...hell no.
Now, do i think the test is the definitive voice on temperament...no. And for all those saying BH is better, just like all tests....I have seen trainers train poor temperament dogs to pass and succeed in BH. Don't tell me it doesn't happen. I have sen dogs conditioned to get through IPO and the dogs temperament sucks. They recondition them to stimuli and shape behavior but the dog's innate temperament is poor. I am sure they do same to pass temperament tests (GSDCA and others).
Like everything else, titles and tests are not the be all, end all. At the end of the day, they mean jack. It's up to us to accurately judge our dogs temperament. Only we know if our dogs freak out in storms, won't go down stairs, won't cross a rickety bridge on hike, won't engage an agressive individual, can't be around young children safely, etc. You don't need tests or titles to tell you those things. you just need to make HONEST assessments of your dog.
Titles and tests CAN be a testament of a dog's character but not always. Some dogs, have the titles and tests and have crap temperaments. And, dogs without both can have great, correct breed character. Just another piece of the puzzle to be used as a whole....more of a tool for us to contnually test and challenge our breeding dogs in and out of test situattions to continually assess their worth..
Sarah
by bzcz on 18 August 2014 - 16:08
That's why a koer is supposed to be so valuable when done right.
Absolutely you can train a dog with temp problems to pass a bh. The question is that if they are trainable, is it a problem?
I had a dog that was dog aggressive, we trained the issue, Raino Fluegge recognized it during the BH and tested it extensively during the BH temperament test portion. He also commented and critiqued it and he passed the dog because even though it was there, the dog's training held and he behaved. After the BH, nowhere is this recorded.
The koer is where this information should be recorded and the koer meisters should deviate more from the pattern that they follow now and really get into the temperament testing of the dog. Not with the idea of pass/fail but with the idea of discovering and documenting what is and isn't in the dogs temperament so that everyone is more educated about what is inside their dog.
by Blitzen on 18 August 2014 - 17:08
Of course my ASL was trained in obedience for her BH. We didn't have to train her to accept strangers or other dogs, etc. She passed her first try inspite of being attacked in the ring by the "down dog".
I trialed 2 GSD's for their GSDCA temperament tests. Didn't "train" either dog or expose either to any of exercises.
Why train a dog to pass a temperament test or to pass a BH? What's the point?
I'm not directing that to you bzcz. It's a general question.
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