merles shepherd? - Page 5

Bee's penultimate picture:  yes, Smooth Collie, look at
the ears.  I believe I remember some reference in the
(translated text) to this dog, but I don't think it was in re:
its merle colour.  Still can't dredge up any memory about
the colour and the dog in the 'missing' photo.

Its possible this was included in the second edition as an
update;  sometimes publishers do that sort of thing.  I would
still love to know what the text actually says about it ...
anything about it !

 Ironically I just noticed this guy on the success page of the DFW GSD Rescue.Although I don't know if it applies to "merle" but kind of has that look.


 

Beetree,

That's the dog I was talking about that I couldn't find the picture for online the "And this one looks merle..." one! Fig. 107. I'm trying to figure out a way to look up the herdsman/farmers of that time since two of the dog's came from Brunswick, but when you look at Brunswick much of Europe was called Brunswick during that time period. I've always been curious since finding out what it was like to be a herdsman during that time.  I know in my copy Max talks about the different herdsman's dogs and their stock during that time, they had very many different types of dogs even mixes of shepherd/poodle mixes as well. He mentions many of the breeds we still have today too.

Just how many versions of Max's book was reprinted? Mine is like I said in my post a reprinted version (2009), but states on the hard cover v. Stephanitz Germany, 1925. I will tell you what the insert says,so it says:

'Second Entirely Revised
AMERICAN EDITION
From the Original German Work By

J. Schwabacher (Secretainerie Kennels, Auerback, Hessen)

For the Sole American Copyright Owner

John Gans (Esqre)
(gives the address)

It says after that ...printed in Germany...

If sable has been bred out of European conformation lines, where did Timo get his colour from?

Margaret N-J

From the working-line dog that was bred to in order to improve working ability and regain the sable color -- Dax vd Kesmarker Trancke, on the sire's motherline.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=20964-timo-vom-berrekasten

I should have said "all but bred out" -- vom Arlett kennels has maintained some sables.

Christine

I feel like hitting myself, I know I had seen the photo when you pull up "Merle" along with the title of the book, but I never thought to go to images and track down the actual website it was on!

Here's what I found when I clicked on it:



"This is a blue merle shepherd dog from Württemberg origin. Max Von Stephanitz selected some of the super dogs from Württemberg origin and combined the gene with that of the Thuringian origin. After many inbreeding, line breeding and many filtration process he could get what actually he whad been looking for - the ultimate working breed."

Link: http://www.aboutgermanshepherddog.com/german-shepherds-evolution

Okay, so we know that particular dog was from Wurttemberg;
and we (always) knew that Max used some Wurttemberg dogs
originally.  But we do not know the name of that dog;  nor do
we KNOW that this particular (merle) dog was one used in the
original breedings. [Because the caption does not say that.]

Which is as non-committal as the text around those pics of other
merle and merle-ish unnamed and distinctly un-shepherd-like dogs.  
Hence the question "Is there merle IN the GSD breed" stays unanswered.  
And, CelticGlory, does that website credit that photo to Max's book ?

EEk !  I feel like some TV detective, ... pulling teeth here ! 

Christine, how could Margaret or I overlook the Arlett dogs ?
More than 'some' sables maintained there, of course !  And
there is a LOT of v, Arlett blood scattered around in SL breedings,
so the colour is a long way from being bred out, don't worry.
Von Arlett of course has some lines crossing the great devide
between Show and Working dogs too, of course - but then, in
GERMANY, the two groups have never been so starkly divided
anyway.

Thanks Christine, of course in the 1970's, the split was nothing like a s pronounced as it is now so Dax was far more acceptable to use.

Margaret N-J

Joseph Schwabacher revised the book for both the American and British
markets;  can't find which year he did that, but I don't think it was very
early.  Schwabacher wrote his own book on the breed, based in his own
pre WWII experience, in 1922 ... the copy I have is a much revised '58 edition
written well after he had escaped to England and set up the UK incarnation of his
Secretainerie kennel.  But it still a book written close to the 'source', and in
no discussion of what Von Stephanitz did or wanted, nor of coat and colours
and early dogs in the mix, does Merle get any mention.

Hundmutter,




No, that one site didn't credit Max; however, while on my way to campus for my math class I decided to do some more digging. I remember years ago seeing pictures like Fig. 107 (the one Bee found, that I couldn't seem to find.)  somewhere, but without proof I didn't want to mention it. Let me tell you something it took me almost two hours to find it! Do any of you know of the OTFS (Old Time Farm Shepherds) bred by J. Richard McDuffie? Well, after reading the information on Linda Rorem, who was sent a letter from McDuffie, I remember in the book where Max called some of the herdsman's shepherds "...old fashioned shepherds..." so I got curious. I typed in "old fashioned shepherds merle" and guess what I found?

The German Coolie/Australian Koolie: http://www.herdingontheweb.com/coolies.htm, and I found mentioned of dog's like Fig. 107 from the 1900's (because he looks like a German Shepherd), he's not a earlier period Coolie or Aussie.

Also, it was stated that Max, in fact DID NOT like merle shepherd dogs so bred them out early in the development of the GSD; however, herdsman's still bred the merle dogs to their farm stock.

--------------------------------
"By 1901, German collies were being shown at dog shows in the Adelaide area and continued to appear in dog show classes until 1911.  After that, they disappeared from the show ring and continued on solely as working dogs. In the meantime, in 1904 German sheepdogs were imported that were said to be “the first two German sheepdogs which have arrived in Australia.”  They were described as resembling the Kelpie and being wolf color.  Long forgotten were the German sheepdogs that arrived with the Saxon Merino rams on the Antonie or the Dockenhuden or the Senator in 1851.  These wolf-colored 1904 imports were, of course, modern German Shepherd Dogs.  It was the modern German Shepherd Dog, which he influenced so strongly, to which Capt. Max Von Stephanitz referred in his book, The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture, when he talked of German shepherd dogs being imported into Australia.  He did not write that there had been earlier importations of a German merle breed called the “Tiger.”  He referred in his book to tiger-spotted dogs, but the references are to color, not a breed, and he also used terms like dappled and flaked to refer to merles.  Although Von Stephanitz wrote that “the colouring of the dog has no significance whatever for service; our shepherd dog accordingly is not bred for colour,” he expressed a dislike of the merle color, and before long it was gone from the registered German Shepherd Dog.  The German Shepherd Dog was no longer to include merles, or small variable dogs resembling the Pomeranian, or dogs whose bodies and muzzles were covered with a wooly, tousled coat, the old German “sheep poodle,” some of which had been brought to America in the early-to-mid 19th century.  But the “variable” German herding dogs continued to be bred by working shepherds, farmers and cattlemen.  Traits such as shaggy-faced coats, bobtails, long coats, and merle colors survived in the dogs that did much of the day-to-day herding in Germany, and in recent years a working-oriented organization, the Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde (AAH), has been formed to register these Old German Shepherd dogs. "
 --------------------------------------------
My point of posting that website is to confirm that Max did at first include merle sheepdogs in the development of the breed, but for whatever reason did not like the color so bred them out! So after consideration, our Fig. 106 that I posted earlier has to be one of the earlier (what we know them as today) merle sheepdogs that lead to the development of the Australian Shepherd when they were imported to Australia. Because, when I first saw the picture I immediately said "Aussie". 

So to also restate Linda Rorem's website shows mysterious dog! Her information does credit Max!!! A Blue Merle, and she credits Max v. Stephanitz, 1923. http://www.herdingontheweb.com/oldgermanshepherdinUS.htm