Is there a bias? - Page 1

There are two distinct german shepherd lines. Working and show. If a working line dog were to enter one of the show line shows (Westminster type) would there be a bias or discrimination against the working line dog even though it may be the most beautiful and correct dog there?

I was watching some dog show on tv from a couple years ago just now and there was an Irish setter being shown but thy said they didn't think she would win because she was from more of a working/hunting line tan the rest. Sure enough out of all the Irish setters she was placed last even though I thought she looked better than most of the others. I wish I knew what the show was but it was like the prelims they were doing the bird dogs more or less when I was watching and then the winners of each if those would move on and face each othother on the flip side same thing. If a GSD SL entered a WL type show would it be looked down on or scored a little lower on the protection etc than a WL dog?  I would like to think both sides are above this and the best dog would score the highest but after seeing this 
 

It made me wonder

Troopscot, I am surprised you even have to ask this. There's a very good reason many border collie breeders fought CKC/AKC recognition. They knew that in the show ring, the herding abilities and working soundness of their dogs would take second place to beauty standards that are largely artificial.

This has happened to nearly every working breed I can think of.  Some dogs, such as Neapolitan mastiffs and English bulldogs have been ruined by the show ring to the point where they are incapable of performing the jobs they were originally bred for. The bulldog can't even reproduce without human help!

Huh?  are you clueless?  sometimes we wake up and say what happened - but really?

Yogie

Let me give you an example from a breed I know a little bit about.

Here is a hunting line golden, from a well-known kennel, Topbrass:



Here is a show line golden, bred by the people I used to buy my dog food from. They are wonderful people, and usually had a puppy in their store that they were socializing:




Quite a difference, no? Most show dogs I've seen have even more coat on them than this one.

(If you like Goldens, check out June's kennel! If I were in the market for a Golden, I'd buy one from here in a heartbeat!  Most of her dogs have performance titles as well as conformation titles. She and her husband REALLY REALLY do things right!)

http://www.setherwood.com/OurGirls.html

And there are American show lines and German show lines, which are vastly different dogs. I was told that was why the German lines show the SV circuit and the American lines show the AKC, for the most part.. I think that with any really popular breed of dog, you get many different "types", even if they share the same kennel club registration.. Also, everyone has their biases, people who own and compete in conformation classes, will prefer show lines, as someone who is competing in working titles will prefer working lines. The judges in these events are usually from show or working backgrounds, depending on the event, so they will more than likely prefer the look of a show line over a working line, if they have a conformation show background. lol I have never competed in either events, this is just my opinion, from talking with people, reading and looking stuff about GSDs up..

Troopscott,  there would be nothing to stop
you entering an obviously working-bred GSD
(or indeed an import of a German showline)
into an AKC Show.  [ I don't know if, for
Westminster, exhibitors have to Qualify at a
'lower' level Show first ?  Maybe, if not, you
could take that dog straight to Westminster !]
But do not expect to be placed !  

The working dogs that are 'good' enough in construction,
in addition to their working abilities, do exist;  but
not enough of them are so obviously of either
showline type that they get shown often;  and
any dog that falls short of that will get pushed
to the back of the line in any Showring. 

Indeed many people (not me, actually) would argue that
its impossible for any dog that really fits the bill in a
Showring, in terms of construction, would not be balanced
enough or fit enough to work properly anyway.  Personally
I would be more convinced of that one in regards to AKC
rather than German dogs ...

I guess I knew it did but didn't expect it to e discussed on tv at a dog show. 

I recently went to an international show at purina farms with 2 of my working line dogs. I was told by 3 different judges that are also akc judges that they are sick and tired of the broken-down American showlines (their description, not mine so please do not take offense) and that they would love to see my dogs in the akc ring. I may try a few smaller shows with them and see how things go. 

You can certainly enter a workingline dog in an AKC show, but be prepared for disappointment. The american showline dog is the way it is because that's what judges are placing so that's what the breeders are breeding for. This won't change until the parent club gets serious about changing what they consider breed standard.