BVA Elbow scoring? - Page 1

Hi

I am new to the world of German shepherds

I am currently looking for a puppy, i was advised by a friend to make sure the parents were health tested.
I found an advert for a litter quite local to me in doncaster on pets4homes, however although it said both parents were health tested it did not show their results. I spoke to my friend who actually has boston terriers.
they sent me a link for a page on the kennel club website to check them

the results are as follows
arkashan infra red
male: elbows  3
hips: 13

equiside genna
female: hips 9

just wanted some advice to see if this is any good?
any advice would be very welcome
thanks in advance


 

hiya Steve,u need 2 be aiming for as low scores as possible for both parents,n both elbows /hips.The lower the scores,the better.Hips are scored from 0(being the best) to 53(the worst) n its better if both hipa score as even as possible....ie a 3-3 score is better than a 0-6 score.Elbows are scored from 0-3 n only 1 score is given...ie.if scores on elbows is 0-2 then the score is 2 ,if 1-2,then score is still 2,the worst is given.I would recommend u 2 visit the KC puppy webpage or champdogs as most (not all)breeders will do the necessary health tests.Both parents should be hip/elbowed scored n the male should be haemophilia tested clear as well.Please ask the breeder 2 show u all the relevant documents ...ie.health test score sheets,(might not be able 2 see the sires papers),kc regd doc.at least 4 the dam,breed survey report.Make sure u c the dam with the pup n expect 2 be grilled n u should ask the breeder any questions u have too.I have listed the gsd breed councils secretary,s phone no.as she may know of a breeder in the area u r in who has puppies or may be in the near future.....Mrs Shelia Rankin....01708.-342194.

Hi Noddi

thank you for the info
just been looking at the advert for that litter again and I am shocked at the dishonesty of the breeder there is no mention of the mum or dads results only that they are tested
Is this kind of dishonesty common with German shepherd breeders
The breeder responsible claims to be a kennel club assured breederI sked the breeder about it on their website guest book however I got no reply  they just deleted the post is there some governing body I could report them to

Hi Steven, you can try talking to the Kennel Club, because if this
breeder really is an Assured Breeder the KC ought to be able to
do something about it.

On the results you got for the two dogs themselves - and yes
unfortunately running them through the KC database is often the
only way to get information in advance, but it is one of the important
ways to "do your homework" on a puppy purchase - personally I
would not want to buy a puppy by a sire with a fairly mediocre hip
result AND a "3" on elbows.  That's a fair old risk to take, especially
for a novice.  Can see why the seller did not want to shout about it
in their advert.  Better they hadn't used him in the first place.  The
dam is from a decent kennel/line but the owner, breeder of this litter
has not done her a service by breeding from her before having her
tests done, it appears.

On breeders' honesty:  there are better ways to find a puppy than by
using multi pets for sale websites and freesheets.  Some breeders
using those will be ok, but others ought not to be touched with a 10
foot pole.   Especially for someone new to the breed who cannot sort
the wheat from the chaff yet.  GSD breeders are no better and no
worse than ppl in other breeds - there are good and bad in all walks
of life, please don't think everyone in Shepherds is a rogue !

Better ways: as Noddi says, go to the Breed Council;  find out
where the GSD Club is in your area and ask ppl with dogs there
that you like who they can recommend, which local breeders have
current litters to sell, etc.  Then you can see some dogs and decide
what you like. Ditto, try to attend a Show or Trial or two and ask
the same questions there.  When you get a recommendation,
check their websites;  search them on the 'Net.   Find out as much
as you can.  It all may sound like a lot of work and a longer process,
but it really does beat sticking a pin in a page of adverts.

LInda Swift.

Elbow score of 3 is the worst elbow score that can be recorded and is not a recommended score to be bred from. From a purely personal point of view I wouldn't be looking for a parents with a 2 either, as I think that is unnecessarily high. There are many, many good dogs with 0 elbow scores. 1 maximum if everything else about the dog is really top class (for me). As Carole said, the lower score the better in both hips and elbows,and as even as possible for each side, so for a hipscore 4:4 for a total score of 8 is better than 7:1.

Don't take any information from anyone at face value, always check the validity of the information you have been given. That would hold true for whatever you are buying, but buying a puppy is even more important, because you will love it and any future health problems will cause both you and the puppy pain. Not like a car or fridge freezer you can just send back!  Do your homework very well. Never go to free ads, Pets4Homes etc. you are really not likely to find the very good breeders listing their puppies there.

Thanks for the amazing info all of you

I will go and do some more research and maybe visit a few shows etc, its nice to see there are honest people out there, so I have every confidence I will find the right puppy.
With the knowledge to safely avoid bad breeding such as this.

Kindest regards
Steven

I would like to add a comment on here as this board seems to be discussing our breeding practices and honesty as breeders.
The Sire in question we have used on our bitch does have an elbow score of 0/3.
The dog had an accident in training as a youngster resulting in a fracture, a piece of bone had to be removed from the leg to stop it causing any future problems to the dog.
The dog does NOT HAVE ELBOW DYSPLASIA, in fact his elbows are set perfectly in the sockets, unfortunately because of the injury the BVA had no option but to give that side a score of 3.
We are keeping a bitch puppy from this litter ourselves, and rest assured if we thought there were any health problems with this dog we would never have entertained using him.All prospective puppy enquiries have been informed of both parents scores, we keep nothing back to anyone wanting a puppy from us.
If Steve Kirby had bothered to call us we would have been more than happy to talk to him.As it is he seems hell bent on trying to ruin the reputation of a kennel he knows nothing about, i will not be replying any more on this post, i dont feel the need to explain myself to someone who would prefer to SLANDER our kennel instead of simply talking to us and asking for the facts, leaving a post on our guestbook with no email address for us to even reply to was not the way to ask for information
 

I did contact you via your guestbook, however you just deleted my question instead of explaining the situation. I would have thought that if you had nothing to hide you would have answered the question or maybe been honest your ad for the litter. Sorry I cant comment on the injury etc wouldnt know where things stand with that.
It would look odd though dont you think, nothing on the ad then refusing to answer the question when it was asked. It would look a little dodgy.

I have only stated FACTS, maybe you should look at it from my side and wonder what would you think

I needed some advice and found this forum, thanks to the nice people on here I am now much more aware of how things work
thankfully I was put off you by this, because judging by the snotty tone to your reply you probably are not the kind of person i would want to buy my first german shepherd puppy from

Judging by the research i have been doing this afternoon I would gather that a result is a result no matter what happened and as an assured breeder rules are rules and not ment to be broken or bent

if i am wrong then im wrong, ill put it down to experience, maybe I just wont buy a german shepherd puppy at all if your the kind of person i am likely to encounter.

BUZZ  _ And what about the bitch, then ?  No scores on KC records ?

Funny but its the breeders who reply on here and scream "not fair", rather
than putting info out there when selling pups, [or if that is too many words
for the ads, answering prospective buyers questions and explaining honestly],
who end up giving themselves a bad name.  The defensive and belligerent way
your post is worded will make sure of that.  No one else has to do anything.

I agree with Linda.  Surely the thing to do would have been to simply answer the question that was posed in the guestbook? Why was the fact that no email address given relevant, what was the big deal? To delete it does seem to be an attempt to conceal the information from being made public, as is not publishing the actual result, with the explanation as given above on the website.  That would be full and honest and if it deterred potential buyers, then so be it. It does not help the reputation of breeders as a whole when events like this take place.  There is also the fact that the bitch has not had her elbows scored, and that is something that this particular buyer has had to find out themselves, rather than it being made clear on the website, and it IS recommended for assured breeders. The catch-all of 'health tested' is sadly mis-used and often reveals something lacking. Really it doesn't do anyone any favours.

The OP has IMO done the right thing and asked the right questions, and chosen to go somewhere else. That is his prerogative, and is based on information that he has discovered, but which should have been clear from his very first view of your website IMO. Then he wouldn't have had to ask these questions on this board.