You be the judge! - Page 1

This is the case:

We got a bitch that was in whelp. At the time we took possession of her, she was due in 10 days. The owner at the time of whelping called me to get birth date, sex and total number of puppies whelped so the litter can be registered with AKC.  The information was given by two difference types of messages.  Since giving birth, the bitch has been transferred into our names. I have since found out the the litter owner, even though he was given the CORRECT number of puppies born, has registered a total of 4 extras, 2 of each sex.  There is no doubt in my mind the plans were to use the extras on puppies that had no registration papers.  

This same person had asked me what was my thoughts about registering a litter using a registration paper other than the one on the stud that actually sired the stud. OBVIOUSLY I disagreed.  I was told he regretted breeding his male to a particular female so he didn't want his stud to be shown as the sire of the litter. Later, I had a friend call me to ask advice on a puppy's pedigree she was thinking about buying.  It was a puppy from this breeding, but the dog she was told sired the litter was not the dog I was told by the sire and Bitch's owner, sired the litter. So I know he did exactly what I advised him NOT to do.  

With this information, as the present owner of the first bitch, knowing the possibility of puppies being registered as hers, and are not hers, how and what would you do?  The second paragraph was just written to confirm that it wasn't his one time incident of lack of knowledge of doing whats right or wrong.  There are at least 2 other incidents I have been told of similar things with this same person.  

I have not posted any names publicly as I do not want to be accused of bashing someone.  If anyone has any questions or wants to know more information, please feel free to PM me.  
All I will say publicly about his person is, they claim to be a breeder of top quality dogs and a trainer of quality dogs.  He does ship dogs throughout the US.  

What do you think I should do about the incident with the first bitch?

Depends. An ethical person would (a) turn him in to the AKC, and (b) sever all business dealings with the individual ASAP. We are known by the company we keep.

I would have to call him on it and if he CHOSE not to do the right thing, I would contact AKC. Ive known other breeders who have done this and I think it's wrong. Since you now own this bitch and should the puppies not certify OFA or the likes, your dog will be tied to these duds. Doing the wrong thing is doing the wrong thing. I would ask him if he received compensation on the stud fee he now regrets and if he did, then he could DO THE RIGHT THING, give the money back and refuse to sign off on the papers. Although I'm not sure that would be very moral IMO, he could just chuck it up to lesson learned but to cheat buyers because he is trying to get out of something that has already happened, is rather crappy.

Barb

HEXE, that is exactly what I did.  I confronted him with my concerns and he denied it.  I gave him the chance to make it right and he denied all the things I proved to him he did wrong. I even spoke to AKC and asked them to give me the opportunity to try to get him to return extras. He basicly said that AKC had was lying to me, but they had told him it was all correct.   So AKC was openly involved. AKC proved to me he was lying and he actually did register the 4 extra pups.  It is out of my hands now. AKC did inform me, that I can rest assure no more than the orginal number of puppies I had proof of that were actually whelped by the bitch we now own, can be registered.

KUDOS to AKC for standing up for the ETHCIAL breeders and get the unethical ones.  I think its called RED FLAGS!  

Barb, he owned both the sire and the dam.  We have pictures he sent to us, holding a particular puppy saying, "Look at the pretty puppy XXXXXX produced with XXXXXX."   Even with that proof, he still denies it and says its none of my business, because I had nothing to do with that breeding. Maybe he is right, I didn't have anything to do with that breeding. However, I am one that is trying to better our breed, not destroy it or misrepresent it.   He is a pretty bold person to continue to deny it when I have it in his own words and face in the picture.  Oh, and now, he's getting a lawyer because he is accusing me of slander.  

Sorry I feel like I did the right thing!

Before DNA testing was available, it was easy to get away with crap like this, and it was done all the time.  Not so much now, however, since it's too easy to prove--especially when it comes to trying to falsify who the dam is! Good for you, Hutchins, for doing the right thing.

Of course, anyone who is willing to falsify paperwork doesn't really give a damn about having their registration privilages with the AKC [or any registry] revoked--they'll just figure out how to work around that, or if all else fails, they'll switch over to a different registry...or create their own.

Yes Hexe you are right!  As I understand he is a partner with someone else.  So I guess people like him always have a backup plan incase they get caught with their unethical ways. Sad thing is, I really don't think the partner is aware of what is going on. That partner lives way across the US.  Not to mention this person is such a sweet and polite talker.  I can understand how anyone could get caught up in his web, I sure did.  Starts off like a breath of fresh air asking for him and showing all the respect possible.  Leads you to believe there is no way he is not capable of such unethical things.  Than he makes the move.  Oh well.  Hope he is readign this and learns his lesson.

By the way, just a bit of info.  On the bottom of every AKC individual puppy registration, right to the right of the barcode that is located on the left of the middle of the page, you can see exactly how many males and females are registered in every litter.  It will look something like this, M02F01.  This meaning 2 males and 1 female was actually registered in this litter.  Total in litter, 3 puppies.  So when it reads, M05F05 and you know only 5 puppies actually should have been registered, The RED FLAGS go up.  Hmmmmm wonder whats the purpose in getting 5 extra reg papers.   Even after proving this to the person, he still denied it and said he only got 5 puppy reg papers.  UMMMM ok, than why do I have 8 and 9.?  I may have believed it, but I was given puppy reg forms 08/09 for the two pups we kept... DUH!!!   AKC confirmed there was no error on their part as she pulled up the original litter application and reviewed it... Can you say BUSTED!!!     

Good Deal...I think this is one way of keeping the breed as good as possible...

We are the guardians of the breed...

I know that the SV checks the DNA of both the Sire and Dam to make sure it's what  the litter's out of...I think AKC should be more active in protecting the breeds....

The only thing I would worry about is YOUR bitch's well being;  you both could get suspended or fined or both for falsefication of paper work and registrations.  Steer clear of this person from now on is what I would do; your name and dogs do not need to be drug thru the mud for the sake of this dishonest breeder/trainer.  Ethics are at the top of the list for me of importance and honesty.  JMO  Nan

I dislike that kind of crap. I myself take a great deal of pride in my dogs, who they are and who they came out of.
I have this guy that calls me quite often to either buy a pup from me, or breed his dog to mine. The answer is ALWAYS no.
He called not long ago and asked if I had any extra papers from my sisters dogs laying around.
I told him NO, they all already belong to a dog.
That, is one of the reasons he will never get a dog or breeding thru me,
Not to mention I just flat out don't like the way he cares for his dogs. They are nothing more than a means to an end for him.
My dogs deserve so much more than that, as do ALL dogs.