what do u think about cow hocks - Page 10

blitzen, I have held off on you because I really do think you have the GSD at heart. But really, how many GSD have you bred or finished to AKC Championship. How many have you bred or titled to KKL1. 

I.m thinking 0. Please crorecct me if I'm wrong.

tired of u,

Rik

Well... what do I think about cow hocks? Love 'em! LOL

Here's why... my darling nine-month old. :)




I must say that her cow-hocks are only evident when she is standing. In movement, she is more agile than any other GSD I have owned even when she was only six-months old. And, in a trot, when viewed from behind, her rear pasterns beat up and down like perpendicular pistons.

BTW she is in her first heat cycle and "out-of-coat", and not too keen on photos from behind.

Well AllanF she was kind enough to stand still long enough for you to take the photo !  lol
Actually she hasn't got the worst case of cow hocks I've ever seen, even without what you
say about her movement.  There are many worse about !   It is true that a lot of GSDs 
stand as yours is doing in the pic;  I suppose technically its not correct, and it does place
a bit more stress on ligaments etc;  but really I think people get too worked up about this  
and a bit of juvenile looseness in stance and movement;  when really what we should be
protesting about are:
1  the adult dogs who waltz round a showring with their back legs 'knitting a woolen';
2  the puppies who at 12 weeks or older are walking ON their metatarsals ('hock
walkers')
Neither ought to be acceptable in breeding programmes IMO, but both are being, to some
extent and by some ppl;  not only bred on but actually awarded conformation prizes.  However
good a dog is otherwise, it does not justify doing that.  Mad !

In puppies, slight cowhocks often is associated with deep and tight, correct hip sockets and good rear muscle mass, especially in puppies with the correct rear angulation which should be somewhat exaggerated before they mature.  As the GSD ages this slight cow hocked condition often corrects and the rear abngulation diminishes a bit.  Puppies with the proper amount of rear angulations (and without sickle hocks which involves a lower thigh which is too long like most American Shepherds) often are slightly cowhocked until they mature and this can be normal.

Preston I agree absolutely - but did you watch that Kennel Gim video ?
[Sorry can't link it]  -  surely THAT ain't right ?   Dunno what the pup
walked like six months later ...  but anyone knowing about her history
surely should not then breed from her [assuming she lives/lived that long] ???

there are varying degrees and reasons  a. dog may show cow hocks. I really don't consider allanf's dog as serious. It's the ones with bones actually turned in and must be held in place by handler when presented. this type has nothing to do with over angled rear.  A dog with extreme angles will often stand this way because there is less control of the long bones.

a dog with correct angles that stands cow hocked will almost always have the bones turned in and cannot stand any other way unless held in place.This is really not an issue in most w/l dogs, at least what I have seen.  but is very common and acceptable in the s/l.

I found the link to the GIM Kennel video.
http://youtu.be/X2n6lBgSVgU
Looking at the puppy at 1:05 in the video, I think it is a matter other than cow-hocks per se. There appears to be a much greater structural concern with the poor puppy's entire rear end.

My original photo above was the best of a dozen digital snap shots - "best" in terms of the subject standing still and showing her hocks, but, perhaps not good at showing the angles. Here are some "better" photos from the side and rear:




This is her normal unfettered stance (although she was more interested in the chickens running around the yard than me yelling "stand!") In a stacked position, her legs are more closely aligned underneath her and the cow-hocks even more exaggerated. At a younger age, her natural stance was properly stacked even though she would at times appear to be very precariously balanced and occasionally wobble. Unfortunately she is losing that natural stack. However she is becoming less cow-hocked (as expected). My guess is that the length of the rear pasterns may contribute to instability requiring the rear pasterns to turn outward. I can also see a slight curve in the lower thigh-bone which would bring the hock joints closer together. I don't see that in my older (12-year-old) GSD. It's interesting what Preston says about the connection with the hip sockets. Only time will tell with this girl. She has certainly been burning the candle at both ends from a very early age.

I understand that she is young and still developing, and that her angulation is very different to adult dogs, particularly those in the American Show Lines. However, I think the question is: What is the effect of cow-hocks on the working capability of a GSD. From my experience with this young dog, I would venture to say "none!" She is more cow-hocked and more agile than any other GSD I have known, at any age. At this stage, I am not worried about her at all

I have seen worse cow-hocks in the show ring, especially when handlers are trying to choke a galloping dog back to a trot despite the antics of second handlers outside the ring while the dog's rear legs are deperately trying to drive forward getting tangled and terribly splayed - the "eggbeater" effect as another poster described. LOL. The same question: who knows how these restrained cow-hocked dogs would perform unfettered in an open field?

AllanF

On your last question, I can tell you that running around a big field
with a couple of balls,  the only GSD in my 'work' pack who was a slight
-ly cow-hocked  (funny, but her's got WORSE as she aged ...) bitch,
who on a straight 'gait' on or off lead actually moved quite nicely most of
the time, had NO trouble keeping up at speed with my male, who does
not have cow-hocks.  They are both International (Germanic) type,  both
bred in England, completely unrelated so far back as I've checked.  She
never falls over when cornering, or seems to slow up from being in any
way uncomfortable.   I just see this as some proof on what I have been
knocking on about for 3-4 years;  like you say, would be  no quantifiable
impact on their working ability. In fact, she is better at jumping than my
boy.  Go figure.

The people who are the most obsessive about cow hocks usually are not the ones that can give you an informed answer to the impact  of cow hocks on working ability. That's why I smile to myself when I read the responses on cow hocks. It's like the importance of croups in good working dogs, or the importance of gaits in good working dogs....what you see that is strived for in the pet and show world has little corellation to actual working ability. 

Well yeah Gustav except cowhocks isn't being 'striven for' as such, its
more a by-product, I don't know of anyone who deliberately tries to achieve
it in their stock, Show or Work.