Take this trouble for me - Page 1

"  Take this trouble for me:  Make sure my shepherd dog remains a WORKING DOG, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim."  Rittmeister Captain Max von Stephanitz.  Just thought alot of people on this board need this reminder

i could not agree more.......about preserving the breed as a working dog, however -
max is not the one paying between $1200 and $12000 for our dogs.  he is not the one paying $60 per bag for kibble.  he is not even the one cleaning up that expensive waste and hosing down the kennels.  he isn't running outdoors in the middle of the night to potty train a new puppy or waiting patiently on a bitch in welp.  he isn't the one holding the head of an elderly dog as the vet administers that final shot.  max had his day.  horand was far from a perfect dog just as our dogs today have fine points and failings.  the breed doesnot belong to max nor any of his peers.  the breed belongs to us right now and will belong to the next generation when it is their turn.  each being mindful of their responsibility as owners and breeders, there will be german shepherd dogs far far into the future.
pjp

Ziegenfarm,   How is Igor?  Could you PM me a picture. Irco is great.  Man he bites like an alligator.  Back to the point.  You are right it is our breed now.  But we have to remember our history and learn from our elders this is how we preserve the gsd as a working dog. I think the original goal of the gsd being a working dog is something that we have to pass onto the next generation. if we continue to let people water down the working ability, the gsd will just be a big lap dog with nice pigment and a pretty gait. 

please define   WORKING DOG
I bet most of todays definitions are way different than the defenition of captain max had , that made the breed wanted worldwide for various tasks
many of these tasks are already taken over by goldens , labs and malinois

are the new "owners"  of the breed creating much more than a dog that can run , and one that can retrieve a sleeve?????

sport dogs are not working dogs.  that is not to say that they can't be ----they can, but they must first be given the opportunity to work.  people must realize that titles do not guarantee working ability.  show dogs are not working dogs and that does not say that they can't be either, because they can, but they also must be given the opportunity to work.  many dogs today could work, but we will never find out because they are  only trained to show well or to garner points.  i guess i would compare it to sending a child to school where half the class learns math and the other half learns to read.  neither half gets a complete education.
i think we tend to romanticize about the dogs of old......and about max.  take a look in his book!  i can hardly believe that those mangy curs are the forerunners of our breed today.  in truth, if max and his buddies posted on this board under aliases, they would be ridiculed and labeled backyard breeders.  they would be accused of ruining the breed.  they might even be reported for animal abuse.
times have changed.  the dogs have changed and the type of work needed has changed.  originally, there was a great need for herding dogs.  today we have a great need for narcotics and explosives dogs.  we also have a greater need for personal protection.  that seems like a pretty big step up to me.  the fact that they started out herding sheep and are now working in life threatening situations, is amazing.
i think the working ability is still there.  it needs to be cultivated.  aside from that, what's wrong with dog sports and dog shows?  they are both great fun for the dog & handler.  why not do it?  they just need to be put in the proper perspective.
like they say, "no learning is ever wasted."
pjp

at least they were not feeding kibble back then.

 Quote: sport dogs are not working dogs.

Sure they are. You contradict yourself in the next sentence, so I left it out of my quote.

Quote: people must realize that titles do not guarantee working ability. There are no guarentees. Never have been, but you at least have tested dogs. A much better choice than lets say weasel wranglers like I read in another thread.

Quote: show dogs are not working dogs and that does not say that they can't be either, because they can, but they also must be given the opportunity to work.

You have a much lower percentage with show dogs. 

Quote: many dogs today could work, but we will never find out because they are only trained to show well or to garner points.

This is really sad, as to me it shows that you do not have the experience that you should have. It is kind of a goofy statement.  To just out and out say that they could work, except for the fact that they are showing or training for trials, well I would just want you to tell me what the heck are you talking about ?

Quote:  i guess i would compare it to sending a child to school where half the class learns math and the other half learns to read. neither half gets a complete education.

What are you saying here ? This really is a bad example for what is going on in the GSD breed and is confusing as hell. 

Quote: i think we tend to romanticize about the dogs of old......and about max. take a look in his book! i can hardly believe that those mangy curs are the forerunners of our breed today. in truth, if max and his buddies posted on this board under aliases, they would be ridiculed and labeled backyard breeders. they would be accused of ruining the breed. they might even be reported for animal abuse.

Those mangy curs ? Animal abuse ? Seriously what are you talking about ? The dogs were selected for their ability to work. Look, everyones perception is based on what they start off with. I am pretty sure that you would not stand a chance in a discussion on the GSD breed with Capt. Max,  Can you imagine what he would think of your dog ? This is the guy that went into the ring, shot a pistol and dismissed anything that freaked out.

Quote: times have changed. the dogs have changed and the type of work needed has changed. originally, there was a great need for herding dogs. today we have a great need for narcotics and explosives dogs. we also have a greater need for personal protection. that seems like a pretty big step up to me. the fact that they started out herding sheep and are now working in life threatening situations, is amazing.

Again, do you have any idea how simple it is to teach a dog to find stinky explosives ? Do you think it requires a dog ? They are using rats to do this in Africa. It is not this amazingly difficult thing. It is really really simple.

Do you not think that the shepherd needed a dog that would defend him as well ? What are you reading, the abridged version written by small children ?

Quote: i think the working ability is still there. it needs to be cultivated. aside from that, what's wrong with dog sports and dog shows? they are both great fun for the dog & handler. why not do it? they just need to be put in the proper perspective.

What is it that you think we are always going on about ? The showline people are taking away the GSDs ability to work. The working line people should show up in mass at dog shows just to show people what the breed is supposed to look like.

A working dog has to work. No matter the job, if the dog just sits around the house all day, and the dog has no job, he gets bored and acts out. This is what many show people are refering to when they say that the dogs are unbalanced.&nbs

 Show people want a dog that has very high thresholds. It is easier to deal with. That is what I see many people call proper temperament. The dog is pretty much a doorknob, so being in a ring doesn't bother him. However, it is the high threshold that they are looking at, not the actual character of the dog, or the temperament. When you take that same dog to do something like Sch, that high threshold becomes apparent, because the dog does not get very excited when you are trying to get him to play. They get excited, but the thresholds are all wonky, and some of them can be taught to do a routine, like Sch, but at a low level.

The other thing is that it is not all that hard to get a dog into a show ring and have him do what they want. Winning is probably a bitch, but lets face it, it is based on the one thing that matters the least, and that is how the dog looks.

I hear arguments about structure, but it is based on what people are "assuming" would be correct. The dogs are not worked in any fashion where you could prove that you are right, so people just blather on. There is no proof, and o one is stepping up to the plate, so it is a moot point really.

Then we have drive. Good grief people need to get a grasp on where it really should be. You cannot do this on a board, you cannot do this in a show ring, you need to go out and watch the working lines and as many as you can, as they are suffering as well. I have a friend in the military, and out of 111 teams there are 5 with GSDs. That alone should make you wonder.

The big split occured many years ago. People think it was the 80's, but I think it was late 60's. What that really means is that there are people in their 40's that may have very very little experience with what a GSD should really be.

I would have no problem if the showline dogs actually worked and were a bit less sickle hocked. LOL However any of you have seen how butt hurt people can get if their dog is not thought of by everyone on the planet as all that ad a bag of chips. they come on here and read what I write and I can see them flipping about in their living rooms yelling at their husbands or wives "LOOK WHAT THIS ASSHOLE WROTE ! "

I have also had temperament testers come to my training and had no idea what was going on with the dog. They did not know the BASIC drives of the dog, yet are certified temperament testers. Not sure why I am writing this now, I think I might need to stop and go to bed.

police buys malinois and goldens , labs and cockers for various tasks , in many countries the GSD isnt even looked at for guiding the blind anymore , so that leaves the GSD as a show and sportdog in general , and not the workingbreed captain max was dreaming about