This is a placeholder text
Group text
by hutch on 28 September 2010 - 12:09
Time after time on the database there is in one form or another discussion about the value of the woking qualifications that many show dogs have.
I am not posting to have a go at any particular dog but it is so well known that many, many of the show dogs with working qualifications have either not worked for them or have done very limited work to gain them with money exchanging hands. Not only have I had this confirmed from a very reliable source but I am currently training a young dog for the first time in Schutzhund and knowing how much is involved it is obvious that not all of the animals that claim to be SchH qualified are capable of it. Especially those who are sent away to train and come back after a realtively short time and relatively young with the qualifications.
Does the SV care about the credibility of these qualifications? If it does why can't it do something about this? They approve the judges - should they not discipline them more?
As breeders why are we kidding ourselves that the dogs we use have working qualifications? I'm pretty sure it's because not many have the time or inclination to really train their dogs. Surely there is a way of assessing workability and character without this farce?
To put this into perspective, I absolutely love SchH sport and will be the proudest person on earth if and when I qualify my dog. I am not having a go at the sport - just the cheapening of it and the deceit that is going on in the show world.
Oh and let's remember that if my dog fails his SchH then it won't be because I am new to the sport or because I trialled him to early or because he or I had a bad day - it will be because he isn't up to it. Or so the show world will have you believe because show dogs can pass easily first time every time.
I started off saying that this is not aimed at any particular dog - and I mean that but surely there must be others out there who are as cheesed off as me because they are working hard to get their newly "compulsory" qualifications and it comes so easily to others - and what do they have to prove once they have the papers? That they can bite in a very controlled routine - and judging by the courage tests at a recent show - very few do even that with flair!
I am not posting to have a go at any particular dog but it is so well known that many, many of the show dogs with working qualifications have either not worked for them or have done very limited work to gain them with money exchanging hands. Not only have I had this confirmed from a very reliable source but I am currently training a young dog for the first time in Schutzhund and knowing how much is involved it is obvious that not all of the animals that claim to be SchH qualified are capable of it. Especially those who are sent away to train and come back after a realtively short time and relatively young with the qualifications.
Does the SV care about the credibility of these qualifications? If it does why can't it do something about this? They approve the judges - should they not discipline them more?
As breeders why are we kidding ourselves that the dogs we use have working qualifications? I'm pretty sure it's because not many have the time or inclination to really train their dogs. Surely there is a way of assessing workability and character without this farce?
To put this into perspective, I absolutely love SchH sport and will be the proudest person on earth if and when I qualify my dog. I am not having a go at the sport - just the cheapening of it and the deceit that is going on in the show world.
Oh and let's remember that if my dog fails his SchH then it won't be because I am new to the sport or because I trialled him to early or because he or I had a bad day - it will be because he isn't up to it. Or so the show world will have you believe because show dogs can pass easily first time every time.
I started off saying that this is not aimed at any particular dog - and I mean that but surely there must be others out there who are as cheesed off as me because they are working hard to get their newly "compulsory" qualifications and it comes so easily to others - and what do they have to prove once they have the papers? That they can bite in a very controlled routine - and judging by the courage tests at a recent show - very few do even that with flair!
by Penny on 28 September 2010 - 12:09
No answer was the quick reply. Mo
by Shonnag on 28 September 2010 - 13:09
I am new to Schutzhund and if I ever title one of my dogs it will be a very proud moment. It is a demanding sport and there are many reasons why young dogs qualify, with a skilled trainer, an experienced handler and regular access to competent helpers most dogs should realise their potential. OK some may not be pretty but 70 percenters never are when compared to the cream of the bunch but seventy is enough to get qualified.
Personally I now have just about enough knowledge to handle a Sch dog though I am still lacking in the skills to train one so of course it will take me longer. Am I cheesed of, No. Am I tempted sometimes to leave the hard work to someone else, Yes.
But it is a great way to prove your dog so I will keep at it as long as I and my dogs enjoy trying.
by ChrissiDrake on 28 September 2010 - 13:09
Good post Hutch. Something must of rattled you to make the post or is it just because you are participating in the training yourself so you can now recognise the dogs easier that have obvious bought titles ?.
by hutch on 28 September 2010 - 14:09
ChrissiDrake
My dog is two years old next month. I have been training him since he was 7 weeks old - I am delighted with his progress and really, really enjoying it but now some of the dogs which he competes / has competed with in the show ring are beginning to be titled and it gets frustrating. I know a lot of this is because I am new and learning and I chose the slow route (didn't wanted to part with my dog for anything and can't afford the cost of sending him away). I know that some of his peers will have genuine qualifications - they may have "just" about got through but they got through and have been trained but I am also pretty sure that some did not and it is irritating because they are now "better" than my dog in many people's eyes.
I also had a conversation with another breeder at training last Sunday and it just became so obvious that the credibility of the qualifications is totally undermined.
Shonaag
I am sure that there are very good trainers with excellent support and facilities that can do a marvelous job with young dogs - my point is that there are some dogs gaining qualifications that don't deserve them and it casts doubt on the whole system.
My dog is two years old next month. I have been training him since he was 7 weeks old - I am delighted with his progress and really, really enjoying it but now some of the dogs which he competes / has competed with in the show ring are beginning to be titled and it gets frustrating. I know a lot of this is because I am new and learning and I chose the slow route (didn't wanted to part with my dog for anything and can't afford the cost of sending him away). I know that some of his peers will have genuine qualifications - they may have "just" about got through but they got through and have been trained but I am also pretty sure that some did not and it is irritating because they are now "better" than my dog in many people's eyes.
I also had a conversation with another breeder at training last Sunday and it just became so obvious that the credibility of the qualifications is totally undermined.
Shonaag
I am sure that there are very good trainers with excellent support and facilities that can do a marvelous job with young dogs - my point is that there are some dogs gaining qualifications that don't deserve them and it casts doubt on the whole system.
by Rik on 28 September 2010 - 14:09
hutch, I don't think it is a secret that some dogs coming from Germany do not have "real" qualifications. Just in my limited experience, I know a dog with Sch. 1, KKL1 and V rating in Germany that has no idea of fuss, sit, platz or even the most basic obedience commands, no idea of a track or an article. The dog is being taught these things now.
The dog will do the bites required for survey, but will not take any pressure at all.
Of course everyone does not do these things, you just have to be careful who you deal with.
The dog will do the bites required for survey, but will not take any pressure at all.
Of course everyone does not do these things, you just have to be careful who you deal with.
by hutch on 28 September 2010 - 14:09
Definately not a secret!
When I want to use a dog at stud I can be relatively sure of the validity of, say, its hip and elbow scores. There are "pliable vets" about I guess but I suspect they are in the minority.
If I want to know the working ability of a dog then his qualifications are what I have to rely on - how can I be sure of them? I suspect "dodgy" working qualifications are far more frequent.
When I want to use a dog at stud I can be relatively sure of the validity of, say, its hip and elbow scores. There are "pliable vets" about I guess but I suspect they are in the minority.
If I want to know the working ability of a dog then his qualifications are what I have to rely on - how can I be sure of them? I suspect "dodgy" working qualifications are far more frequent.
by Alyson R on 28 September 2010 - 15:09
Please do not assume that just because a dog has been sent to Germany that dog is unable to do the work required .
We have sent numerous dogs to trusted friends with the brief that they MUST be able to participate in the British or German Sieger if required. We start the dogs off over here and get them to a certain level before sending them to carefully selected trainers. We have used 5 different trainers and without exception all have performed very well. Yes, we have had our failures, but not because they weren't trained properly - but because no dog is a machine and they just had an "off" day . It is impossible for any dog to go to Germany without any preparation and do the necessary work in a short period of time. We maintain the training once they come back by doing tracking and obedience as well as bitework (Schutzhund qualifications are not JUST all about protection work). We have qualified Antilli Sindy ourselves with her SchH1, so we are very hands-on with the training.
Two of our young males have just returned with SchH1 and Koerung - both obtained before they were 2 years old. Ozzie performed very capably both at the German Sieger and the British Sieger. Atlas, being just a week or two too young to go into the Working Class, did a very, very competent workout at the practice on the Friday - not once but twice.
Shirley, I hope these dogs were not who you are referring to - I invite anyone cordially to come and see them, and any of our qualified dogs, work at any time.
We have sent numerous dogs to trusted friends with the brief that they MUST be able to participate in the British or German Sieger if required. We start the dogs off over here and get them to a certain level before sending them to carefully selected trainers. We have used 5 different trainers and without exception all have performed very well. Yes, we have had our failures, but not because they weren't trained properly - but because no dog is a machine and they just had an "off" day . It is impossible for any dog to go to Germany without any preparation and do the necessary work in a short period of time. We maintain the training once they come back by doing tracking and obedience as well as bitework (Schutzhund qualifications are not JUST all about protection work). We have qualified Antilli Sindy ourselves with her SchH1, so we are very hands-on with the training.
Two of our young males have just returned with SchH1 and Koerung - both obtained before they were 2 years old. Ozzie performed very capably both at the German Sieger and the British Sieger. Atlas, being just a week or two too young to go into the Working Class, did a very, very competent workout at the practice on the Friday - not once but twice.
Shirley, I hope these dogs were not who you are referring to - I invite anyone cordially to come and see them, and any of our qualified dogs, work at any time.
by Abby Normal on 28 September 2010 - 20:09
If I am reading Shirley's post correctly, it is far more generalised than singling out any particular dog/s.
I admire Shirley for training her own dog, and for having the principles to post open about a deceit that many show line people have denied happens for a very long time now, but which at the same time has been common knowledge.
I suppose it comes down to whether the paper qualification to tick the required boxes is more important than ensuring that the preservation of working characteristics is maintained in the breed. I guess the former is probably closer to the truth in many cases. As long as this continues natural working ability is being lost to the breed.
I think the only answer to finding a suitable stud is to go and see the dog work. Having trained your own dog you most certainly will be able to tell, as you clearly can already!
I admire Shirley for training her own dog, and for having the principles to post open about a deceit that many show line people have denied happens for a very long time now, but which at the same time has been common knowledge.
I suppose it comes down to whether the paper qualification to tick the required boxes is more important than ensuring that the preservation of working characteristics is maintained in the breed. I guess the former is probably closer to the truth in many cases. As long as this continues natural working ability is being lost to the breed.
I think the only answer to finding a suitable stud is to go and see the dog work. Having trained your own dog you most certainly will be able to tell, as you clearly can already!
by hutch on 28 September 2010 - 21:09
Alyson, I am absolutely not singling out yours or any other person's dog. Obviously there are dogs out there that earn their titles. I remember conversations that you and I have had about training and seminars - I know the efforts you put into your dogs before they go to Germany and I know that the infrastructure in this country is not developed enough everywhere for all to be able to train themselves.
BUT
show dogs with working qualifications are scorned because of the numbers that don't deserve their titles and it is a sizeable minority which are causing wide-scale sceptisim of all show dogs. If we cannot get away from this dishonesty then the genuine ones will not be fully appreciated.
I believe that the vast majority of breeders submit their x-ray plates properly and would not dream of attempting to influence the results - so why are so many more willing to have a less than pucker working qualification? Perhaps the requirement for a SchH working qualification is flawed? Perhaps working ability and character could be assessed in a different way? That would mean that the need for a working title is reduced and the temptation to bend the rules along with it?
I am really pleased with the requirement for a working qualification because it has introduced me to a really interesting new aspect to my dogs but it is not everyone's cup of tea!
BUT
show dogs with working qualifications are scorned because of the numbers that don't deserve their titles and it is a sizeable minority which are causing wide-scale sceptisim of all show dogs. If we cannot get away from this dishonesty then the genuine ones will not be fully appreciated.
I believe that the vast majority of breeders submit their x-ray plates properly and would not dream of attempting to influence the results - so why are so many more willing to have a less than pucker working qualification? Perhaps the requirement for a SchH working qualification is flawed? Perhaps working ability and character could be assessed in a different way? That would mean that the need for a working title is reduced and the temptation to bend the rules along with it?
I am really pleased with the requirement for a working qualification because it has introduced me to a really interesting new aspect to my dogs but it is not everyone's cup of tea!
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top