Question on dental certification & KKL.... - Page 1

I have a show line dog, just 2 years old, working on Schutzhund titles (he has a BH and other titles).  He has an SG rating from when he was 13 months and several VP ratings.  His hip and elbow x-rays are currently with OFA and when they come back I will send them for a-stamp (doing OFA first because I need his other paperwork for some events this fall, don't want it stuck in Germany).  The radiologist estimated OFA good or excellent.  Once we finish Schutzhund titles I would like to do a breed survey, mostly for the experience and for the satisfaction of having trained and handled the dog myself.  He is not missing any teeth but he has an overbite.  I know he will probably be KKL2 and not KKL1, I am OK with that.  The overbite is not horrible, it has no implications other than it not being perfect.  Otherwise he is correct size, type, conformation.  Very nice dog, I love everything about him and don't care if he's not "perfect".  I am not rushing his titles just for the breed survey.  I'm not a breeder and don't plan on breeding so there's no reason to rush.  We love Schutzhund training and I plan to train him through SchH3 and then do the titles.  My concern is that if something happens to his teeth between now and the breed survey, I don't have any proof he has full dentition.  When he was 13 months I presented him to an SV judge for the dental certification, but the judge was hung up on the overbite, didn't want to mark it on the certificate so he recommended I just drop it and wait a few more months, see if the bite improved (I guess he had a nice dog and the overbite improved between 12-16 months).  Well I've waited a full year and as I expected, the bite has not changed.  Like I said, I am not offended if he is KKL2 instead of KKL1.  Would it be wise to try again for the dental certification?  I guess I don't know what the implications are if the judge notes the overbite.  I understand he would be obligated to note it, and with the dog being 24 months obviously it's not going to improve.  Or, do I forget it but then take the risk that the dog damages or looses a tooth in training and then I don't have the necessary proof that he has full dentition?  What would you do?

Well Liesjers, if it was my dog I would informally show him to an SV judge (meaning you approach the judge during lunch break or before and after the event and have him take a look at your dog's jaw). An overbite would actually bring a breed book ban, not just KKL2 or no breed survey. It all depends how big of an overbite and/or level bite it is.

Here is the SV's definition:
Breed Survey Regulations - 2010 and currently valid edition
7.2. KKL2
d) ... oder bei geringem Aufbeißen der mittleren Schneidezähne ( loose translation: "or with slight level bite of the middle/front incisors") - please note that they are not mentioning an overbite but a level bite.
Now further, here is the excerpt of the SV Breeding Regulations - 2009 and currently valid edition:
4.1.4. Zur Zucht nicht zugelassene Hunde ("Dogs not suitable for breeding")
c) Hunde mit Kiefermängeln: ("Dogs with jaw deficiencies")
- mehr als 2mm Überbiss ("more than 2mm overbite")
- Vorbiss ("undershot")
- Aufbeißen im gesamten Schneidezahnbereich ("level bite in the entire incisor area")
So, when you look at these regulations you will realize that you are risking a breed book ban on your dog which means that we all (who describe to SID) will read your dog's name and registration no. and that none of the offspring will be eligible for registration. I have no hands on experience in this matter as I would not keep a young dog with an overbite (as most breeder would not either). So, instead of risking that ban it would be more wise to actually talk to a judge, or better the Körmeister you want your dog to get surveyed under. None of these judges want to issue that ban personally as it causes misery for the owner and involves paperwork with the SV, but they have to. Otherwise, they would violate their office.

continued...

Ok, so much about the overbite. Of course, the judge was hung up an that, as this is a serious issue - see my above post.
The other question you had is about proof of dentition.
You either have his dentition recorded over 12 month of age, as you attempted but was denied due to his overbite or you get it documented if something happens.
I did that a few years ago with one of my young females. She had an abcessed molar which needed to be pulled. My vet did an x-ray before he extracted the tooth and wrote a note regarding it. The Körmeister fully accepted it.

Thank you Chris, that helps.  So, if something happened to the tooth the SV judges will accept the vet records?  I don't have any x-rays or vet records currently showing he has full dentition but if anything happens, what should I be asking for from my vet?  I was wondering about having my vet examine the teeth and giving me a signed letter on the vet's letterhead saying he has full dentition but someone told me the SV judges *only* accept their own dental certifications as proof.

When I took him to the judge at 13 months he stuck a match stick in his mouth and said it was borderline.  The judge did not seem too concerned, just told me to come back another time and try it again.  I think you also answered another question, whether it would be kosher to ask a judge off the record beforehand.  Maybe I will see if that particular judge will be around in the near future.  I don't know much about judges or who is a stickler for what but this particular judge did not seem intent to ridicule me about a slight imperfection and I could understand his German easily.  Some of them I can converse with, others it's like they are speaking a different language.