3rd SV Website Announcement - Page 9

Louis said in his post 15^th February “Genetics are a complex matter that are influenced by people applying common sense in their selection process and contrary to many opinions being expressed on all the threads because of this common sense application Harley may be, statistically speaking at least, a producer of acceptable elbows?!” With this in mind regarding the application of common sense why would a breeder want to use Harley, or, any other male with a history of dysplasia behind him? Sometimes we have to take a risk when it is clear the dog has something worthwhile to offer towards the benefit of the breed. In this case as Harley is too young to determine his worth to the breed why not wait until he is fully developed until making any decision. Over the years there have been many young dogs who have shown promise at a young age but with time and development proved unsuitable. Once used the damage is done and may go on for generations. We cannot say with any certainty that at this time the production from Harley will be for the better or the worse. We also have to consider the females family history before trying to determine failure or success should poor or good results arise. We must remember that using any animal that has anything below the top grade of elbow/hips means that we are breeding from dysplastic animals. How can we eradicate this problem if we continue as we are?

I would be interested in your opinion David rather than just the one liners.

Mackenzie

 

Mackenzie writes: "We must remember that using any animal that has anything below the top grade of elbow/hips means that we are breeding from dysplastic animals. How can we eradicate this problem if we continue as we are?"

The facts are that even those dogs with top grades in hips & elbows almost certainly carry the genes (complex as they certainly are) for hip & elbow dysplasia.

Mackenzie: I write as I seem appropriate, at all times.

Anyone who thinks otherwise are most certainly deluded.

Incomplete penetrance of a genetic disease means the % effect on any animal can be from 0.1% up to 100%. Obviously the lower percentages can not be detected from x-rays, probably up to as high as 5% or even 10% affected may fall into the xray gradings of "normal". This is why an eventual DNA Test for Hip Dysplasia & Elbow Dysplasia will inform us about genuine HD & ED Free animals. It may also inform us of its mode of inheritence.

David your presentation of the facts is as usual excellent.

When you say “I write as I seem appropriate, at all times.” perhaps you should have gone further and added “however inappropriate in avoiding giving an opinion”.

As a Judge and, an International Judge at that, added to the fact that you are a long term breeder I thought that you would have been willing to impart some of your knowledge to interested readers by way of opinion. After all, that is what Judges do all the time isn‘t it. No one person alone can provide the solution to the question that I posed but I feel that we have to start somewhere by asking the question.

You are already aware that I am in favour of DNA testing for as much information as possible. In my opinion that is one of the ways forward.

Mackenzie  

Mackenzie, I do respect your knowledge and experience, and therefore have no problem exchanging opinions with you. However I now try, where possible to keep my comments restricted, because there are a number of people on this website who assert their views and opinions on matters where they have none or very little experience. They also routinely make unfounded assumptions which quite frankly I find ridiculous. The problem is they think their opinions based on obvious ignorance should be appreciated and respected. I find that wholly impossible to do. It is very similar to an apprentice advising or instructing his tutor on matters they know little or nothing about.

Several people who post have never bred a litter, never chose a stud dog, and never experienced all that this entails, yet they blatantly make ill-informed and ignorant judgment calls on those that have and even those that have for many decades with notable success. Give me the long term serious and honest Breeder who claims everything he has produced has been perfect and I will give you a liar. But some of these people  who post want to nit-pick on something they suspect, without any factual knowledge whatsoever, with the knowledge that many on this site are not clever enough or are very similar to themselves will believe them.

For a time I took and posted video's of my litters, especially those out of Top Males from Germany, thinking they may be of interest to some breeders & owners for various reasons. I have a superb litter here from V1 Omen vom Radhous and I am running on 2 males & 2 females. They are almost 10 weeks old. I have been requested to video them over the last 4 weeks and post them on the internet, obviously because that is an important period for assessing puppies, and I have refused because it simply gives some people ammunition to nit-pick, assume, and stalk the litter through their growth and maturity looking for ANY opportunity to cast aspersions and ridicule and raise unfounded suspicions, directly or indirectly on to them. 

It is with these sad occurrences and facts that I restrict what I write and post, and have reduced my posting, hopefully ceasing altogether soon (as my genuine friends advise), that I fully understand why major breeders and GSD kennels VERY RARELY or NEVER post on here, or on any other internet site.

Thank you for your post David.  I really do know where you are coming from.  Good luck with the Omen puppies, as you know it is a matter of time now before you know the value of this mating.

Mackenzie

Wow,
nice outcome of this post, a lot of valuable info, that can be taken.
Whilst one, just cannot resist to state how stupid some on here are, and how dare these peopel are to not follow the views and superior knowledge of Mr. Payne ! 
David, as McKenzie puts it, you have a vast knowledge, why cant you just share it, without putting yourself onto the top shelf ? You would help the breed more by coming down to earth than anything else !

And yes, DNA seems to be most valuable aproach at this time, given that all play along the lines.

Hoping for better times to come.

Ulli

Back to Harley:
I just checked the Decknachrichten 02/12 (latest stud news, published today, reporting on matings done in January). Harley turned two years old in mid of January which means that he could have started his stud career now. To date, he has not been used which means that German breeders are aware and fully in compliance with the SV website announcement. I will continue to monitor the Decknachrichten for that but I have a feeling that Harley is not going to be published there.
Happy "Rosenmontag" - this is one of the days in the year where I miss being in Germany!
Chris