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by Oskar1 on 09 February 2012 - 15:02
allanf,
well, this is, or at least may sound a little confusing. Please forgive me my limited english, I am trying to do my best.
Harley did indeed meet all requirements to participate at the Siegershow.
The problem was, the fraud committed in regards to Jaguars ED, was done BEFORE the Siegershow, so if ones checks the cataloge of the Siegershow 2011, V59 Team Marlboro Jaguar - HD Sweden, DNA checked, ED normal !
So even if, and I bet Mr. Wischalla did, checked, everything looked ok.
Harley titel was achieved BEFORE the fraud was reveald.
Now everything was in the open - now the SV had the knowledge that Jaguar has ED- consequence Jaguar lost his V59 placing and his Körung.
Because of the fact that Jaguar now had no Körung anymore and has ED - he had to be taken out of the kennelgroup. The fact that he now was out of the kennelgroup, eliminated the entire kennelgroup for technical reasons. Meaning the kennelgroup, without Jaguar, did not fullfill the minimum requirements for a kennelgroup to be eligible to take part.
I guess, it is very hard for me to describe all this, so it does make a bit of sense to you, the main problem is /was
the fraud was discovered after the show !
So now, all these club laws and so forth apply, and they can & will make you wonder and shake your head in disbelief !
Ulli
well, this is, or at least may sound a little confusing. Please forgive me my limited english, I am trying to do my best.
Harley did indeed meet all requirements to participate at the Siegershow.
The problem was, the fraud committed in regards to Jaguars ED, was done BEFORE the Siegershow, so if ones checks the cataloge of the Siegershow 2011, V59 Team Marlboro Jaguar - HD Sweden, DNA checked, ED normal !
So even if, and I bet Mr. Wischalla did, checked, everything looked ok.
Harley titel was achieved BEFORE the fraud was reveald.
Now everything was in the open - now the SV had the knowledge that Jaguar has ED- consequence Jaguar lost his V59 placing and his Körung.
Because of the fact that Jaguar now had no Körung anymore and has ED - he had to be taken out of the kennelgroup. The fact that he now was out of the kennelgroup, eliminated the entire kennelgroup for technical reasons. Meaning the kennelgroup, without Jaguar, did not fullfill the minimum requirements for a kennelgroup to be eligible to take part.
I guess, it is very hard for me to describe all this, so it does make a bit of sense to you, the main problem is /was
the fraud was discovered after the show !
So now, all these club laws and so forth apply, and they can & will make you wonder and shake your head in disbelief !
Ulli
by Abby Normal on 10 February 2012 - 00:02
Ulli
I understand the withdrawal of the award to the kennel group, it is very clear.
In terms of the award of Youth Sieger to Harley, I still do not understand why the SV are allowing this to stand instead of reducing his placing to what it would have been (lower, not SG1) had the status of Jaguar been known.
It is the same as allowing anyone in any other sport to retain a title having discovered that it was achieved by cheating - it would not be allowed to stand. The title should surely revert to the dog that achieved the SG2 placing, and Harley dropped down to a correct placing taking into account the (now known) facts.
The very fact that he holds the title of Youth Sieger will no doubt give a feeling of security which may yet turn out to be misplaced.
Somehow I doubt that anyone is going to 'publicise' that this title is a fraud - least of all those who would promote Harley, and it would seem not the SV!
I understand the withdrawal of the award to the kennel group, it is very clear.
In terms of the award of Youth Sieger to Harley, I still do not understand why the SV are allowing this to stand instead of reducing his placing to what it would have been (lower, not SG1) had the status of Jaguar been known.
It is the same as allowing anyone in any other sport to retain a title having discovered that it was achieved by cheating - it would not be allowed to stand. The title should surely revert to the dog that achieved the SG2 placing, and Harley dropped down to a correct placing taking into account the (now known) facts.
The very fact that he holds the title of Youth Sieger will no doubt give a feeling of security which may yet turn out to be misplaced.
Somehow I doubt that anyone is going to 'publicise' that this title is a fraud - least of all those who would promote Harley, and it would seem not the SV!
by Oskar1 on 13 February 2012 - 19:02
Abby,
I understand your frustration - that goes for a lot of peopel. Every point you make is absolutely valid, it is even so that Harley is owned/coowned by one of the biggest breeders in Germany - he even has Harley on his stud dog side. It is hard to believe that he does not remove Harley from his HP. It is the belief of many breeders here in Germany that he is not in compliance with the German Breeding Regulations, we will get words in a little bit about this.
The reason why the SV is not doing anything at this time about the placing of Harley is actually simple :
Harley did not cheat - it was Jaguar ! And at the time of the placing of Harley, the fraud was not known ! It sounds stupid, actually it does not only sound stupid, in my book it is stupid, at the time of placing there WAS no fraud. If there was no fraud, there is nothing there to be revoked !
But I can assure you, there are many, many members of the SV complaining - maybe something will be changed.
Anyhow, you raise some pretty good points - thank you.
Ulli
I understand your frustration - that goes for a lot of peopel. Every point you make is absolutely valid, it is even so that Harley is owned/coowned by one of the biggest breeders in Germany - he even has Harley on his stud dog side. It is hard to believe that he does not remove Harley from his HP. It is the belief of many breeders here in Germany that he is not in compliance with the German Breeding Regulations, we will get words in a little bit about this.
The reason why the SV is not doing anything at this time about the placing of Harley is actually simple :
Harley did not cheat - it was Jaguar ! And at the time of the placing of Harley, the fraud was not known ! It sounds stupid, actually it does not only sound stupid, in my book it is stupid, at the time of placing there WAS no fraud. If there was no fraud, there is nothing there to be revoked !
But I can assure you, there are many, many members of the SV complaining - maybe something will be changed.
Anyhow, you raise some pretty good points - thank you.
Ulli
by Abby Normal on 13 February 2012 - 22:02
Ulli
Thank you, you have explained it well.
Whilst IMO, like you I think it IS stupid, it has a certain kind of logic to it - or would have had it not been for the fact that the awarding judge has openly stated that had the status of Jaguar been known at the time Harley would not have received the placing he did. Had the judge not made that very clear statement I would agree that there should not be a change of placing.
Now we are in a situation where we do know what the status of Jaguar was at the time of the award, the situation should be reviewed, anything else is pure travesty.
Thank you, you have explained it well.
Whilst IMO, like you I think it IS stupid, it has a certain kind of logic to it - or would have had it not been for the fact that the awarding judge has openly stated that had the status of Jaguar been known at the time Harley would not have received the placing he did. Had the judge not made that very clear statement I would agree that there should not be a change of placing.
Now we are in a situation where we do know what the status of Jaguar was at the time of the award, the situation should be reviewed, anything else is pure travesty.
by Oskar1 on 14 February 2012 - 05:02
Abby,
it' s allready 10 years ago, since I moved back from the US to Germany, still one thing comes back to mind :
Would have , should have and could have - neither one of these three will help us !!
And one more comes to mind :
Do as I say, dont do as I do !!
The sad part about this whole ordeal is, what will happen with these dogs ? These dogs lost their "value" for these operation, they will be sorted out.
An oldtimer in the breed said one time to me in regards to my older dogs : " Why do you still have that "old" dog, do you want to start a elderly home or do you want to breed !" With old dog he ment a 7 year old, that I deceided to put to retirement ! This very same was ment for dogs not suitible for breeding - get rid of them. It's just the same with having cows - they dont deliver enough milk anymore - they are gone. Same in the dog breeding world, they just dont go into the slaughterhouse,they dont create a revenue or profit anymore - they vanish from the face of the earth. Yeah, imagine that - a kennel with 2 "sub kennels" keeps all their stock till they die, now that would be an elderly home !
Also comes to mind rereading this : Look at the terms we are using - "breeding stock" - not as we used to do " my female", or "trying to make ends meet", nope in our days it became " profit, creating revenue, . ..the value of the operation.." , it truely became a whole new world.
Ulli
it' s allready 10 years ago, since I moved back from the US to Germany, still one thing comes back to mind :
Would have , should have and could have - neither one of these three will help us !!
And one more comes to mind :
Do as I say, dont do as I do !!
The sad part about this whole ordeal is, what will happen with these dogs ? These dogs lost their "value" for these operation, they will be sorted out.
An oldtimer in the breed said one time to me in regards to my older dogs : " Why do you still have that "old" dog, do you want to start a elderly home or do you want to breed !" With old dog he ment a 7 year old, that I deceided to put to retirement ! This very same was ment for dogs not suitible for breeding - get rid of them. It's just the same with having cows - they dont deliver enough milk anymore - they are gone. Same in the dog breeding world, they just dont go into the slaughterhouse,they dont create a revenue or profit anymore - they vanish from the face of the earth. Yeah, imagine that - a kennel with 2 "sub kennels" keeps all their stock till they die, now that would be an elderly home !
Also comes to mind rereading this : Look at the terms we are using - "breeding stock" - not as we used to do " my female", or "trying to make ends meet", nope in our days it became " profit, creating revenue, . ..the value of the operation.." , it truely became a whole new world.
Ulli
by Abby Normal on 14 February 2012 - 06:02
Yes Ulli you are right. Who are the victims always.
Harley at least will still have significant value regardless, and as we are seeing, because of his overseas appeal, perhaps Jaguar too. But yes, the GSD has become livestock. I can think of no other breed where it has become commonplace to ship bitches in whelp, or to sell dogs for such huge sums of money. It is indicative of a very different attitude to that which we normally apply to companion animals for sure, even those we breed. Luckily, in the UK, we have very few 'commercial breeders' but yes, even then - sometimes their animals get sold on or disappear at a 'certain' age.
But this does seem to be specific to the GSD.
Harley at least will still have significant value regardless, and as we are seeing, because of his overseas appeal, perhaps Jaguar too. But yes, the GSD has become livestock. I can think of no other breed where it has become commonplace to ship bitches in whelp, or to sell dogs for such huge sums of money. It is indicative of a very different attitude to that which we normally apply to companion animals for sure, even those we breed. Luckily, in the UK, we have very few 'commercial breeders' but yes, even then - sometimes their animals get sold on or disappear at a 'certain' age.
But this does seem to be specific to the GSD.
by paulo on 14 February 2012 - 14:02
Visit some of the most succesful show/breeding kennels and see how many of their show stars are still there when they have finished winning or reproducing, they are often discarded, of course they cant keep them all, there's no money or status to be gained when the dogs career is finished. If I visit a breeder and all their dogs are in kennels and not a single one lives in the house I think it's just a business to them.
by Abby Normal on 14 February 2012 - 15:02
Different factors come into play: where you are, who you are and whether you are in it for the money.
We have a good number of HOBBY breeders who do very well in show in the UK that I can think of. Their dogs do live in the house, and yes - they remain there until a ripe old age too. Those are the breeders I respect.
I doubt a similar breeder in Germany stands much of a chance against the machinations of a vast money making machine, though I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't actually producing a better dog - though no-one would probably ever get to know!
Personally I think the Sieger Show has always been a bad idea on many levels. Before I am struck by a bolt of lightning I must add this is a very personal and no doubt heretical opinion !!
We have a good number of HOBBY breeders who do very well in show in the UK that I can think of. Their dogs do live in the house, and yes - they remain there until a ripe old age too. Those are the breeders I respect.
I doubt a similar breeder in Germany stands much of a chance against the machinations of a vast money making machine, though I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't actually producing a better dog - though no-one would probably ever get to know!
Personally I think the Sieger Show has always been a bad idea on many levels. Before I am struck by a bolt of lightning I must add this is a very personal and no doubt heretical opinion !!
by allanf on 15 February 2012 - 05:02
Ulli
Thanks again for your information. I find it hard to believe that so little has been done by the SV, given the facts of the matter.
From the professional intertrpretation of the SV's third announcement (kindly provided by Videx):
What does Mr Wischalla mean by the term, "true status"? Is he referring to the actual fraud committed by human beings which saw the Sire, Jaguar, enter a show and receive awards under false pretenses, or is he referring directly to the Sire's hereditable disease, ED?
I would find it hard to believe that a judge ought to take into consideration that somewhere in a dog's pedigree someone has committed a fraud and therefore the judge should merely deduct a certain amount of points or reduce the dog's standing in the awards. If there is a fraud, or later found to be a fraud, the dog should be disqualified. The owner of the dog should look for compensation from the perpetrators of the fraud. However, it seems to me that Mr Wischalla is not referring to the fraudulent behaviour of human beings.
To me, it seems more likely that Mr Wischalla is referring to the health status of Harley's sire, Jaguar, and Mr Wischalla would not have placed Harley in the "top group" if he had known that Harley's sire had a debilitating hereditory disease. However, if this is the case, it also raises some questions. If a dog's sire (or some other ancestor) is found to have an hereditable disease, should the dog be awarded any placement at all? I say, no - the dog should be disqualified because of the increased risk of spreading the disease when such a dog is awarded any placement in the SV's most important international show. Mr Wischalla seems to think otherwise. So, the question is, what are the rules which a judge should follow in relation to hereditable diseases? Mr Wischalla indicates that these diseases should not be entirely ignored. Therefore, there must be guide-lines for judges to ensure a consistant and accountable system of awards.
Thanks again for your information. I find it hard to believe that so little has been done by the SV, given the facts of the matter.
From the professional intertrpretation of the SV's third announcement (kindly provided by Videx):
| Mr. Lutz Wischalla has stated that this dog would not have received a top rating if the true status of his sire would have been known. |
What does Mr Wischalla mean by the term, "true status"? Is he referring to the actual fraud committed by human beings which saw the Sire, Jaguar, enter a show and receive awards under false pretenses, or is he referring directly to the Sire's hereditable disease, ED?
I would find it hard to believe that a judge ought to take into consideration that somewhere in a dog's pedigree someone has committed a fraud and therefore the judge should merely deduct a certain amount of points or reduce the dog's standing in the awards. If there is a fraud, or later found to be a fraud, the dog should be disqualified. The owner of the dog should look for compensation from the perpetrators of the fraud. However, it seems to me that Mr Wischalla is not referring to the fraudulent behaviour of human beings.
To me, it seems more likely that Mr Wischalla is referring to the health status of Harley's sire, Jaguar, and Mr Wischalla would not have placed Harley in the "top group" if he had known that Harley's sire had a debilitating hereditory disease. However, if this is the case, it also raises some questions. If a dog's sire (or some other ancestor) is found to have an hereditable disease, should the dog be awarded any placement at all? I say, no - the dog should be disqualified because of the increased risk of spreading the disease when such a dog is awarded any placement in the SV's most important international show. Mr Wischalla seems to think otherwise. So, the question is, what are the rules which a judge should follow in relation to hereditable diseases? Mr Wischalla indicates that these diseases should not be entirely ignored. Therefore, there must be guide-lines for judges to ensure a consistant and accountable system of awards.
by Louis Donald on 15 February 2012 - 10:02
Its pretty obvious isn't it? Herr Wischalla is saying that under the SV rules he was able to place the dog SG1 but because of his views in regard to the genetic predisposition of elbows and their gradings, had he knew the dogs fathers real status he would have placed him in the lower group. That's probably around 21st.
What the SV now do is in many respects neither here nor there. What's done is done and it will be left to people who own bitches to decide whether they want to use the dog or not. He will probably end up in China anyway!
Genetics are a complex matter that are influenced by people applying common sense in their selection process and contrary to many opinions being expressed on all the threads because of this common sense application Harley may be, statistically speaking at least, a producer of acceptable elbows?!
What the SV now do is in many respects neither here nor there. What's done is done and it will be left to people who own bitches to decide whether they want to use the dog or not. He will probably end up in China anyway!
Genetics are a complex matter that are influenced by people applying common sense in their selection process and contrary to many opinions being expressed on all the threads because of this common sense application Harley may be, statistically speaking at least, a producer of acceptable elbows?!
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