This is a placeholder text
Group text
by GSD Admin on 08 February 2012 - 02:02
The problem Uli is you talk about what is best for the breed. You post warnings on only one dog when IMO there are at least 3 and possibly more dogs that this same warning should be posted on. Then when I question why it is only on one dog you tell me to go post it on the other dogs. I am not posting it on the other dogs pedigrees but the motivation appears to be other than to warn the world of Jaguars bad hips so his progeny will not be bred. Because if that was the case you would have made those same complaints on the other dogs pedigrees. No?
BTW, you lost the bet on your above post lasting. It is still here.
BTW, you lost the bet on your above post lasting. It is still here.
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2012 - 03:02
No, you got that wrong, it was just about Harley & Jaguar, so I / we did direct our attention only on them, not more not less. If I would name all dogs I have a problem with, or rather I see a problem with I would be digging around all day.
So yes, I ment what I wrote; if you see a reason to warn about Jaguars parents because they do have bad hipps &/or ellbows, write away, if this again prevents stock with healthrisks beeing bred - more power to you ! I have not checked into it - that's all !
One only has a certain amount of time. No GSD, it is what it is - wrongdoing and fiddeling around with the health of the breed, it needs to stop. And yes, this Harley / Jaguar ordeal turns out to be much greater than was thought in the beginning, but again, this is not the fault of the messenger - the "bad" guys doing it are responsible for it !
Ulli
Didn't thought it was a bet - but hey, next time I see you around I will buy a coffee !
So yes, I ment what I wrote; if you see a reason to warn about Jaguars parents because they do have bad hipps &/or ellbows, write away, if this again prevents stock with healthrisks beeing bred - more power to you ! I have not checked into it - that's all !
One only has a certain amount of time. No GSD, it is what it is - wrongdoing and fiddeling around with the health of the breed, it needs to stop. And yes, this Harley / Jaguar ordeal turns out to be much greater than was thought in the beginning, but again, this is not the fault of the messenger - the "bad" guys doing it are responsible for it !
Ulli
Didn't thought it was a bet - but hey, next time I see you around I will buy a coffee !
by allanf on 08 February 2012 - 04:02
|
by German shepherd dog (admin) on 08 February 2012 - 02:02 |
 German shepherd dog (admin) Posts: 180 Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 05:51 am |
|
The problem Uli is you talk about what is best for the breed. You post warnings on only one dog when IMO there are at least 3 and possibly more dogs that this same warning should be posted on. Then when I question why it is only on one dog you tell me to go post it on the other dogs. I am not posting it on the other dogs pedigrees but the motivation appears to be other than to warn the world of Jaguars bad hips so his progeny will not be bred. Because if that was the case you would have made those same complaints on the other dogs pedigrees. No? BTW, you lost the bet on your above post lasting. It is still here. |
German shepherd dog (admin)
If in your opinion there are at least three dogs and possibly more dogs that should have this same warning, then NAME THEM. If you are scared that your opinion is misguided then send the list to me by PM and I will name them on whole new separate topics. At least I will know that the posts will not be deleted, because in your opinion (i. e. the admin's opinion), those dogs should have the same warnings as the dogs named in this topic.
by Louis Donald on 08 February 2012 - 07:02
Putting aside that I don't have a problem at all with people having a need to get an absolutely clear understanding of what the SV announcement actually means, especially if you are not fluent in German and familiar with their way of describing things in official documents. I have to say I look forward to some comment from the SV in regard to who was actually responsible. I think we would all agree that the dogs and indeed the unfortunate Jaguar who was inflicted with the elbow condition had no say in what happened to him nor what was done here and before someone feels a need to point out that the 'unfortunate Jaguar' can inflict the disease on other dogs and needs to be eliminated from the breeding program, responsibility rests with a person or persons who attempted a fraud and serious infliction to possibly many hundreds of other dogs and their owners and this is the area that usually creates the greatest difficulty for an organization like the SV to deal with. Often it is because of well covered tracks creating confusion and ambiguity but too often it's because of politics and dare I say it, in some way or another, underneath it all, money. I have faith in the SV dealing with this matter because they really have no choice in todays skeptical environment. It is in this area that I particular await enlightenment and outcome.
Louis
by hexe on 08 February 2012 - 07:02
I have a question for everyone who's participated in this discussion, as well as the Uran thread: if you've ever had a dog x-rayed for hip and elbow certification, can you HONESTLY and WITHOUT ANY DOUBT declare that the vet who did the radiographs PERSONALLY checked the dog's permanent identification, be it a microchip or a tattoo, compared what they observed or scanned to that which was shown on the dog's registration paperwork, and did all of this BEFORE shooting the films?
This topic came up elsewhere recently, in regard to something entirely apart from the threads here, and I can tell you that in the majority of instances, the owner fills out the forms before they even get to the vet's office for the x-rays, and the vet rarely, if ever, even sees the dog's registration documents. Unless the vet is in the habit of doing A LOT of certifications, most of them don't check the ID, and it doesn't occur to them that a client might be trying to substitute a 'ringer' for the dog that is allegedly being presented...
My point being that there is always going to be the potential for someone to commit fraud in this capacity, as it is with everything involving animals and money. It's a small percentage of the total who are underhanded enough to do this sort of thing, but that small percentage still should make the rest of us extremely vigilant when it comes to buying or breeding dogs. Poor Jaguar doesn't know he's the subject of a scandal, and I can only hope that whoever has him right now sees him as a loving companion first, and a checkbook second (or not at all, preferably!!). This isn't the dog's fault, and he has as much right as any to a good home with people who love him, bad elbows and all.
This topic came up elsewhere recently, in regard to something entirely apart from the threads here, and I can tell you that in the majority of instances, the owner fills out the forms before they even get to the vet's office for the x-rays, and the vet rarely, if ever, even sees the dog's registration documents. Unless the vet is in the habit of doing A LOT of certifications, most of them don't check the ID, and it doesn't occur to them that a client might be trying to substitute a 'ringer' for the dog that is allegedly being presented...
My point being that there is always going to be the potential for someone to commit fraud in this capacity, as it is with everything involving animals and money. It's a small percentage of the total who are underhanded enough to do this sort of thing, but that small percentage still should make the rest of us extremely vigilant when it comes to buying or breeding dogs. Poor Jaguar doesn't know he's the subject of a scandal, and I can only hope that whoever has him right now sees him as a loving companion first, and a checkbook second (or not at all, preferably!!). This isn't the dog's fault, and he has as much right as any to a good home with people who love him, bad elbows and all.
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2012 - 09:02
Hexe,
yup, the last one responsible for this are Jaguar & Harley !
And yes, of course the Vet is responsible to check the ID of any dog that he/she x-rays for the SV ! And yes, the Vet has to have the paperwork of the dog to be x-rayed at hand !
Louis, we are all eager to know that, but knowing how this crap was handelt in the past, I dont know if we are ever told.
At least the SV has confirmed that the findings from Sweden were the only legitimit ones ! And that the 1st x-ray taken and the 3rd x-ray showed the same dog. Therefor the x-ray taken in Germany is of a different dog !
Ulli
yup, the last one responsible for this are Jaguar & Harley !
And yes, of course the Vet is responsible to check the ID of any dog that he/she x-rays for the SV ! And yes, the Vet has to have the paperwork of the dog to be x-rayed at hand !
Louis, we are all eager to know that, but knowing how this crap was handelt in the past, I dont know if we are ever told.
At least the SV has confirmed that the findings from Sweden were the only legitimit ones ! And that the 1st x-ray taken and the 3rd x-ray showed the same dog. Therefor the x-ray taken in Germany is of a different dog !
Ulli
by Louis Donald on 08 February 2012 - 10:02
What will become of Jaguar and even Harley will be what it will be and the outcome of that won't take a lot of imagination and as a consequence before you know it this event will become a matter of history and other equally distressing events will take it's place.
Whilst a general awarness of such things is very important for the breeds well being, stopping the perpetuation of such acts by the person/s who did it is critical. A person with a name and presumably an address submited X Ray plates for Jaguar to the SV?! It would be very interesting to know what that person had to say wouldn't it and hopefully, in time, we will be told?
Louis
Whilst a general awarness of such things is very important for the breeds well being, stopping the perpetuation of such acts by the person/s who did it is critical. A person with a name and presumably an address submited X Ray plates for Jaguar to the SV?! It would be very interesting to know what that person had to say wouldn't it and hopefully, in time, we will be told?
Louis
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2012 - 11:02
Louis,
I am pretty sure it will come into the open - thing is , will it be addressed by the SV ?
Ulli
I am pretty sure it will come into the open - thing is , will it be addressed by the SV ?
Ulli
by Silbersee on 08 February 2012 - 18:02
Hexe,
In Germany, the SV has to approve the vets which will be authorized to take x-rays on their behalf. These vets will definitely check the tattoos/micro ship nos. and have to take the pink papers. Once the x-ray is done, the vet will forward it and make a recommendation as to the grade (the owner of the dog never gets his/her hands on the x-ray). The vet also stamps the pink papers (or foreign pedigree) and signs it. The SV will write to the owner, once the evaluation is done and ask for the pink papers/pedigree to be sent to the breed book office where the stamp is issued.
In the U.S., of course, you know the answer to your question. It is up to the individual vet's discretion to check the identity, plus the owner receives the x-ray. Honestly, not much of a safety check to prevent possible fraud. My vet for example does not check anything for prelims. but does check for certifications. If I would x-ray my dogs for a-stamp here, he will sign a letter (which I type up and give to him) that the dog x-rayed is dog xxx with tattoo No. xxxx. A few years ago, I stopped this here in the U.S. and only opted for prelims. (which I usually send to OFA since I stopped believing in vet's opinions) because I like the accuracy of the German vets better. In Germany, vets actually put the dog in a cast/mold (for lack of a better definition) to ensure that the dog is straight in the film. Here, the assistant holds the legs and that is it.
Regards, Chris
In Germany, the SV has to approve the vets which will be authorized to take x-rays on their behalf. These vets will definitely check the tattoos/micro ship nos. and have to take the pink papers. Once the x-ray is done, the vet will forward it and make a recommendation as to the grade (the owner of the dog never gets his/her hands on the x-ray). The vet also stamps the pink papers (or foreign pedigree) and signs it. The SV will write to the owner, once the evaluation is done and ask for the pink papers/pedigree to be sent to the breed book office where the stamp is issued.
In the U.S., of course, you know the answer to your question. It is up to the individual vet's discretion to check the identity, plus the owner receives the x-ray. Honestly, not much of a safety check to prevent possible fraud. My vet for example does not check anything for prelims. but does check for certifications. If I would x-ray my dogs for a-stamp here, he will sign a letter (which I type up and give to him) that the dog x-rayed is dog xxx with tattoo No. xxxx. A few years ago, I stopped this here in the U.S. and only opted for prelims. (which I usually send to OFA since I stopped believing in vet's opinions) because I like the accuracy of the German vets better. In Germany, vets actually put the dog in a cast/mold (for lack of a better definition) to ensure that the dog is straight in the film. Here, the assistant holds the legs and that is it.
Regards, Chris
by inx on 08 February 2012 - 18:02
In Denmark, Jaguar has 9 pieces of progeny x-rayed.
7 dogs got ED: 0 (normal)
1 dog got ED: 2 (mittlere)
1 dog got ED: 3 ( schwere )
7 dogs got ED: 0 (normal)
1 dog got ED: 2 (mittlere)
1 dog got ED: 3 ( schwere )
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
