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by Oskar1 on 07 February 2012 - 09:02
Miro,
my understanding is, yes, as long as the other countrys will register Harley and their breeding regulations do not state otherwise !
Pretty sad, one should mean that a known healthrisk should be taken sirously all around the globe, wheter it be in the UK, USA, Africa......
Ulli
my understanding is, yes, as long as the other countrys will register Harley and their breeding regulations do not state otherwise !
Pretty sad, one should mean that a known healthrisk should be taken sirously all around the globe, wheter it be in the UK, USA, Africa......
Ulli
by hexe on 07 February 2012 - 18:02
Ulli, I agree with you about this. It is very sad that all of the recognized registries will not come together and concur that if a dog is banned from being used for breeding by one of these organizations, the others shall uphold that ban and not permit those same dogs from being utilized as breeding stock through their registries, either. That still wouldn't stop people from using these dogs for breeding, however--new 'purebred dog' registries are created daily by people who are determined to get their money's worth out of a dog no matter what.
by GSD Admin on 07 February 2012 - 19:02
The thing that gets me is nobody is asking about Jaguars parents elbows but everyone is so concerned about what Harley may produce. You have known producers of bad elbows(Jags parents) but I do not hear one word about them.
It really makes me wonder the motivation behind all of this. I would think that the other litter mates of Jag have a problem also and those dogs owners should all be warned but here we are concerned over a dog who hasn't produced ED, when we have known producers probably still being bred.
BTW, I am not happy with the personal attacks taking place on Harleys pedigree and when it gets deleted please do not bother crying to me. It is silly and very childish to be attacking one another's intelligence on pedigree comments.
It really makes me wonder the motivation behind all of this. I would think that the other litter mates of Jag have a problem also and those dogs owners should all be warned but here we are concerned over a dog who hasn't produced ED, when we have known producers probably still being bred.
BTW, I am not happy with the personal attacks taking place on Harleys pedigree and when it gets deleted please do not bother crying to me. It is silly and very childish to be attacking one another's intelligence on pedigree comments.
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2012 - 00:02
GSDAdmin,
yes, I agree, attacks are always bad - so why dont you delete Mr. Paynes Post where he states that I have a "limited intellect" and more crap !
He started the crap, I just reacted and at that I did no name calling towards him,besides that I called him a Genius ! Is that a reason to delete 4 of my posts on the comment section ? I answered "von osterhagen and I believe "Vivat" (whos 2 posts you deleted aswell - were you at that time in the deleting mode ? Because there was definetly no name calling in his post !), also I answered David's question to the regard that he wanted proof of Jaguar's x-rays - I gave him the dates and the place where Jaguar was x-rayed. This is NOT slander, these are NO assumptions, these are facts that are proofen. So again, peopel wanted to know, one educates them about the situation - yet you again delete everything ! I truely believe you dont even read what you delete, I gues you do it by the name !
Did you ask yourself one time, why I answered in the comment section ? I guess not. Read these post's, there are peopel that admire Harley, and would probably breed to him ! Maybe they do not know the story, maybe they do - but it was the right place to trigger peopel consience to not play "russian roulette" with our breed !
You are truely one piece of work, questioning everything, demanding proof of this and proof of that - when one proofs you about the bad ellbows of Jaguar you question the motive of the messenger and question about the parents of Jaguar !
Well, GSD, same for you as for David - why dont you do your own research if you want to know ? You know, it is quite time consuming to go through breedbooks of different countrys and translate what is needed.
It is about the case of Jaguar & his son Harley - not more, not less.
One can asked why these dogs ? I tell you why, it is pretty obvious : With Harley beeing crowned the Junghund Sieger, he would have had a LOT of stud dates ! Meaning, he would carry his genes massivly into our breed - and this for years to come. We all know it - the Junghund Sieger is ment to go into the VA group the next year, what would that then mean ? Even more stud dates ! I know, this part now is an assumption - but one we have seen quite often, right ? So we would have Harley passing on bad genes - but this is not all - no his father takes also part in a fraud that I have yet not seen in the SV ! Is that not enough reason to look closer into these 2 dogs ?
So we started to look at Harley and his father - and what was the outcome of this, you can read here.
Furthermore, it actually does not matter - according to German breeding rules ALL offspring of Jaguar are NOT eligible for breeding under German SV rules - periot !
Again, it does not matter - ALL littermates of Harley are NOT eligible, under German SV Rules, to be bred to or to stud !
I didn't even think that it was nessecery to point this out - it' s only a logical consequence.
Anyhow, I will be delighted to see my post lasting longer than an hour - but who knows !
Ulli
yes, I agree, attacks are always bad - so why dont you delete Mr. Paynes Post where he states that I have a "limited intellect" and more crap !
He started the crap, I just reacted and at that I did no name calling towards him,besides that I called him a Genius ! Is that a reason to delete 4 of my posts on the comment section ? I answered "von osterhagen and I believe "Vivat" (whos 2 posts you deleted aswell - were you at that time in the deleting mode ? Because there was definetly no name calling in his post !), also I answered David's question to the regard that he wanted proof of Jaguar's x-rays - I gave him the dates and the place where Jaguar was x-rayed. This is NOT slander, these are NO assumptions, these are facts that are proofen. So again, peopel wanted to know, one educates them about the situation - yet you again delete everything ! I truely believe you dont even read what you delete, I gues you do it by the name !
Did you ask yourself one time, why I answered in the comment section ? I guess not. Read these post's, there are peopel that admire Harley, and would probably breed to him ! Maybe they do not know the story, maybe they do - but it was the right place to trigger peopel consience to not play "russian roulette" with our breed !
You are truely one piece of work, questioning everything, demanding proof of this and proof of that - when one proofs you about the bad ellbows of Jaguar you question the motive of the messenger and question about the parents of Jaguar !
Well, GSD, same for you as for David - why dont you do your own research if you want to know ? You know, it is quite time consuming to go through breedbooks of different countrys and translate what is needed.
It is about the case of Jaguar & his son Harley - not more, not less.
One can asked why these dogs ? I tell you why, it is pretty obvious : With Harley beeing crowned the Junghund Sieger, he would have had a LOT of stud dates ! Meaning, he would carry his genes massivly into our breed - and this for years to come. We all know it - the Junghund Sieger is ment to go into the VA group the next year, what would that then mean ? Even more stud dates ! I know, this part now is an assumption - but one we have seen quite often, right ? So we would have Harley passing on bad genes - but this is not all - no his father takes also part in a fraud that I have yet not seen in the SV ! Is that not enough reason to look closer into these 2 dogs ?
So we started to look at Harley and his father - and what was the outcome of this, you can read here.
Furthermore, it actually does not matter - according to German breeding rules ALL offspring of Jaguar are NOT eligible for breeding under German SV rules - periot !
Again, it does not matter - ALL littermates of Harley are NOT eligible, under German SV Rules, to be bred to or to stud !
I didn't even think that it was nessecery to point this out - it' s only a logical consequence.
Anyhow, I will be delighted to see my post lasting longer than an hour - but who knows !
Ulli
by GSD Admin on 08 February 2012 - 00:02
Right, you are fighting and discussing Jaguar on Harleys pedigree and you see nothing wrong with this? Wow.
BTW, 4 admins read it and agreed it was all to be deleted. If you want to discuss Jagaur go to his pedigree and discuss him.
How many bad elbows were produced by Jaguars parents?
How come no one has put a warning on those pedigrees, after all they produced Jaguar.
How come there is no warning on Harleys siblings pedigree.
No this is about the SV and not the dogs. Harleys parents produced Jaguar and no one cares about all their combined progeny.
I call crap.
BTW, 4 admins read it and agreed it was all to be deleted. If you want to discuss Jagaur go to his pedigree and discuss him.
How many bad elbows were produced by Jaguars parents?
How come no one has put a warning on those pedigrees, after all they produced Jaguar.
How come there is no warning on Harleys siblings pedigree.
No this is about the SV and not the dogs. Harleys parents produced Jaguar and no one cares about all their combined progeny.
I call crap.
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2012 - 00:02
GSDAdmin,
once again, I dont believe you read what you delete !
The questions of the poster was why not breed to Harley - well because he is an offspring out of a father with bad ellbows ! And that then is reason enough to delete ??
Harley should not have been born to beginn with - not Harleys fault, but the fault of his breeder, ignoring sientific research ! Why do you question me, or other peopel for this ordeal ? It would make much more sense if you would go against the breeder of Jaguar !
And again- it was obvious that some of the posters there admired, I even think one congratulated the judge for putting Harley up to SG1, Harley - so yes, I think it is, sorry was, a perfect place to get the story to these peopel. Maybe these peopel would reconsider, to think about Harley as a possible breeding partner.
Ulli
once again, I dont believe you read what you delete !
The questions of the poster was why not breed to Harley - well because he is an offspring out of a father with bad ellbows ! And that then is reason enough to delete ??
Harley should not have been born to beginn with - not Harleys fault, but the fault of his breeder, ignoring sientific research ! Why do you question me, or other peopel for this ordeal ? It would make much more sense if you would go against the breeder of Jaguar !
And again- it was obvious that some of the posters there admired, I even think one congratulated the judge for putting Harley up to SG1, Harley - so yes, I think it is, sorry was, a perfect place to get the story to these peopel. Maybe these peopel would reconsider, to think about Harley as a possible breeding partner.
Ulli
by GSD Admin on 08 February 2012 - 00:02
No I read it along with 3 other admins and all agreed it should be deleted.
How many bad elbows did Jaguar parents produce? 1.
How many did Jaguar produce? 0
How many bad elbows did Jaguar parents produce? 1.
How many did Jaguar produce? 0
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2012 - 00:02
GSD ADmin,
it is fruitless to argue with you ! Do you believe for one second that I am having fun doing what I am doing ?? Hell no, you know excatly why I dont give up - it science that tought us not to breed with HD or ED infected breeding stock - because it will be passed on ! What is so hard about that ? If you have the wellbeing of our breed at heart, should'nt you agree and wishing this to stop ?
It does not matter how many or what was produced - it is there - "mittlere ED" !
Then we have rules and research - research tells us what will happen based on studys, the rules tell us what has to be done.
So, that's what we should do - the only thing that makes sense !
GSD, I am somewhat confused - when this ordeal started, you stated that one should wait for the "official" fact's and that the outcome would then be the end of all. Now we do have the official statements, but it still seems not enough for you to come to consequences - your last comment reads like you agree to use Harley at stud. Furthermore it reads that you even have sympathy for Jaguar !
I actually like both dogs myself - but hey, as a couch potatoe or have family fun with them, but as a breeder and lover of this breed most certainly not as breeding stock.
I say it once more - you should direct your frustration towards the breeder of these poor animals - not against anybody else.
Btw, Jaguar was rated at the last screening in Sweden with Grad 3 ED, you know what that means for Jaguar. It is so hard to understand for me, why someone knowingly would take a chance like that.
Ulli
it is fruitless to argue with you ! Do you believe for one second that I am having fun doing what I am doing ?? Hell no, you know excatly why I dont give up - it science that tought us not to breed with HD or ED infected breeding stock - because it will be passed on ! What is so hard about that ? If you have the wellbeing of our breed at heart, should'nt you agree and wishing this to stop ?
It does not matter how many or what was produced - it is there - "mittlere ED" !
Then we have rules and research - research tells us what will happen based on studys, the rules tell us what has to be done.
So, that's what we should do - the only thing that makes sense !
GSD, I am somewhat confused - when this ordeal started, you stated that one should wait for the "official" fact's and that the outcome would then be the end of all. Now we do have the official statements, but it still seems not enough for you to come to consequences - your last comment reads like you agree to use Harley at stud. Furthermore it reads that you even have sympathy for Jaguar !
I actually like both dogs myself - but hey, as a couch potatoe or have family fun with them, but as a breeder and lover of this breed most certainly not as breeding stock.
I say it once more - you should direct your frustration towards the breeder of these poor animals - not against anybody else.
Btw, Jaguar was rated at the last screening in Sweden with Grad 3 ED, you know what that means for Jaguar. It is so hard to understand for me, why someone knowingly would take a chance like that.
Ulli
by GSD Admin on 08 February 2012 - 00:02
I do have the dogs well being in mind but I also have a site to run and when I see people arguing on a pedigree about another dog it looks bad. Go argue on Jaguars pedigree.
I still want to know if the goal is the breed--HOW COME THERE IS NO WARNING ON THE LITTERMATE OF HARLEY OR ANY OF THE DOGS PRODUCED BY JAGUARS PARENTS?
Why just this one dog?
I think this is news because it is the SV getting called out on Harleys shoulders. Sad.
I still want to know if the goal is the breed--HOW COME THERE IS NO WARNING ON THE LITTERMATE OF HARLEY OR ANY OF THE DOGS PRODUCED BY JAGUARS PARENTS?
Why just this one dog?
I think this is news because it is the SV getting called out on Harleys shoulders. Sad.
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2012 - 01:02
GSD,
heck, go ahead and post warnings all over - do you really need someone to do it for you ?
And again - it proofs once again you do not read the post 's completely - I allready wrote it :
With Harley beeing the son of Jaguar, Jaguar beeing stripped off his Körung because of having "mittlere ED" , his entire offsprings, Harley including all his littermates are not eligible to be bred to or stud out under the German SV breeding rules ! That is the consequence that is so written in the SV breeding rules ! No mystery about it, it's in the book !
And again GSD - in the beginning it was not like everything was obvious. It was resaerch at it's best ! The start was about Jaguar, and then it was found out about his ellbows and the fraud committed - and yes again, consequence for Harley out of this - no breeding !
Sorry, but I cant follow - what has this side to do with your personal concerns about the health of our breed ? I mean, hey, we all know the studys about ED & HD, why in the world do you see that any different then I do ?
And yes Jaguar was mentioned in the comments on Harleys pedigree - so what ! Would'nt you say Jaguar plays a mayor role in Harleys life and the story surrounding them ?
Your last sentence says alot - frightening ! Once more - you called everybody out to upwait the official statements, now they are here, but it seems very hard for you to accept them.
Ulli
heck, go ahead and post warnings all over - do you really need someone to do it for you ?
And again - it proofs once again you do not read the post 's completely - I allready wrote it :
With Harley beeing the son of Jaguar, Jaguar beeing stripped off his Körung because of having "mittlere ED" , his entire offsprings, Harley including all his littermates are not eligible to be bred to or stud out under the German SV breeding rules ! That is the consequence that is so written in the SV breeding rules ! No mystery about it, it's in the book !
And again GSD - in the beginning it was not like everything was obvious. It was resaerch at it's best ! The start was about Jaguar, and then it was found out about his ellbows and the fraud committed - and yes again, consequence for Harley out of this - no breeding !
Sorry, but I cant follow - what has this side to do with your personal concerns about the health of our breed ? I mean, hey, we all know the studys about ED & HD, why in the world do you see that any different then I do ?
And yes Jaguar was mentioned in the comments on Harleys pedigree - so what ! Would'nt you say Jaguar plays a mayor role in Harleys life and the story surrounding them ?
Your last sentence says alot - frightening ! Once more - you called everybody out to upwait the official statements, now they are here, but it seems very hard for you to accept them.
Ulli
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