Breeding question - Page 1

So, this may seem like an odd question.   We see breeders doing linebreeding 3-3, some ven doing 2-2 on certain dogs. Like Koos doing a lot of 2-2 with good results.  I'm curious though, what about something like this.....  Say we have an excellent female, who 4 or 5 generations back is a dog like Troll, Nick,  or Yoschy, or any dog who was a great producer, and was a great working dog.  What if the owner got frozen semen from their dog when the dog was alive, and was to do an AI breeding to the dog who has one of the "greats" already in her pedigree four or five generationis back?  I know it's a weird question, but I just wander if something like this has been doine before.  Many think 2-2 linebreedings are oto close, and while this would be something like 1-5, what are your guys thoughts? It would be a dog like Troll being bred to a dog who is alive today, but with Troll already in her pedigree four or five generations back.  Any thoughts on how something like this would turn out? And no I have no intentions of doing something like this, and I know of no one that has anything like this for those wandering.

Thesse breedings using forzen semen from a dead dog are done often in the USA. When a female has a dog back in the 4th or 5th generation, a breeding to that dog using frozen semen is not much different genetically from a total outcross. It is as if the male is alive and is the sire.

Close breedings concentrate the genetic influence of the dog being in or line bred on. It strengthens teh good points, and strengethens the bad or hidden genetic faults as well. You must be prepared that you can get a really good dog, or a genetic misfit. When the SV started doing DNA testing they only allowed 3-4 breedings. Then it turned out Leif Noriswand, a GREAT producer, ended up being from a half brother half sister 2-2 breeding (if I remember right). Soon after that closer breedings were being done on purpose. If you do a clsoe breeding one generation, it is very advisable to do a total outcross or at lease distane line breeding with puppies from that maiting.

Never heard that a dog like Troll has frozen sperm but if there was I suspect you would have droves lineing up to get that sperm if you could get a 1-5 line breeding go for it if in fact it is a well match, and never heard of any 1-5 linebreeding but with science I think someday we will get them there is nothing wrong with a close 2-3 line breeding and many times some of the best dogs are just that,just be watchful of any bad traits being transfered also.

if you whatch the videos of the greats of 4 or 5 generations back , and compare them to todays greats , you might not wanna go for the oldtimers anymore

Bundishep, I doubt any of those dogs have frozem semen.  It's more so a hypothetical question.  

Very unlikely that great producers from way back then had semen stored - first of AI with frozen semen is not accepted by the German SV. One of the reasons being that we need only healthy dogs to reproduce, not dogs with reproductive challenges or dead dogs...- second freezing dog semen is a relatively new procedure in North America....so your question is not really realistic...

My question is not realistic? If anyone would take the time to re read my question, one.....I said it was hypothetical....two I said what if.... three.... I know that none of those dogs have frozen semen stored anywhere.  I'm just saying, like if people had it collected from some of the greats....todays greats even.....and down the road they did something like that.  I don't know a lot about SchH, but does a dog in America have to be part of the SV to compete in SchH?

still wouldn't be a 1 generation linebreeding - would be 2-5 or whatever.  closest allowed by SV is 2-3 so that woudln't be a problem (hypothetically).

molly

There is nothing 'unheathly' about using frozen semen. Virtually all expensive horses in Germany use only frozen semen. This is one area where the SV is way behind the times. Frozen semen can produce full litters, but more often you get small litters. Many of the dogs of yestersay (not all) had better drives than dogs of today, particularly the show lines. Many 'experts' today have been in the GSD 10 years or so and think they have seen (and know) it all. I began in the GSD in 1976, and I would use old lines to improve drive and temperament on many of today's lines. I started freezing semen on my males in 1997 and I do plan to do some 1-4 or  1-5 line breedings soon. (the parents are generation 1, grand parents are generation 2)

Molly, or anyone can you answer why does it matter if AI is not accepted by the SV? Do you have to register with the SV to compete in SchH in America? From what I was told you didn't, and if something like this took place in the states.....why would the SV matter.  Tingiesandnails, someone on the database got a puppy from Norbo Ben Ju recently from an AI breeding.