Schutzhund to Personal Protection - Page 1

Wanting opinions on dogs being trained for SchH and then PP.  Have you done both and what are the pitfalls in transitioning?  Are there things you should avoid or be careful of during SchH training so the dog is not ruined for PP?  One of my dog's sire is a certified police K9 and a SchH3.  Any advice, thoughts or tips? 

there was a time when MUZZLE, SUIT-WORK,CIVIL WITHOUT EQUIPTMENT, were integral parts of schutzhund training...it wasn't that long ago,i started training my first working GSD(ENZO VOM DUNHILL) in 1999.....he did a"BH", "WH",SCH-A(FAIL,NO OUT),AND OB-1(FAIL 69 PTS)...we did a few other things (sda,american street ring,practical protection dog events)...he did very good,the thing is, that after we'd went thru the initial training(muzzle,suit,civil,bite o/b) all i had to do was "target an event"load him on the truck and go...he always did great in anything except schutzhund(althou his "WH"routine was very nice and correct,passed with a very nice evaluation by the judge)...but of course "ENZO" was one of those rare dogs...the type that seemed to be saying"get outta my way newbie handler/trainer"...i'll handle this"!!!!! i guess what i'm trying to say is that with the right dog(stable temprement,solid nerve,suitable pain tolerance/reaction to pain,abundant and suitable drives..meaning a good balance of prey,defence,fight with good trainability)there is no "downside"....not to put down anyone's breeding program or individual dog...but it seems that more often than not...all that's needed for the sport these days is a "prey monkey",and quite a few of thes are a bit too "edge-ie"(a bit unstable off the schutzhund field)...not all but some....since most of the real"BUTTKICKERS" aren't point dogs...they get their titles at local events and get relegated to stud/pet status..not a bad life,and i'm sure those who have been blessed enough to have that type of dog will appreciate the experience for life...i know i do.....real "DOG MEN" told me i was lucky to get such a monster first time outta the box!!! in the hands of a more experienced trainer,surely he could have done better...but he was one cool dog...but to get back to the question,i can't see how varied protection disiplines can hurt a good dog...but if all he has to work with is extreme prey and questionable environmental stability,then that dog may be more comfortable in basic prey/reward based training....heavy defensive,civil,and man-huntind in woods and dark buildings could screw up a less confident dog...yet had the same "prey based,nervey dog found comfort on the schutzhund field,then he could be fine(marginally)...have fun and good luck in your training.

No out...that sounds familiar.  Actually, that is what prompted my question as I had been training them in the Balabanov style and they out the tug, sleeve, etc. when I move into them, make it dead and then quietly say ous.  Sometimes I have to say .."uh uh" and then they willingly give it up.  However in training they prefer to choke the dog off the sleeve (lifting the dog by the collar) and kicking the sleeve away to "keep the drive."  As soon as it became a fight one of my dogs refused to out the sleeve (or maybe thought he was supposed to fight) and when the decoy even put on the sleeve again he stayed on there for at least 10 minutes.  That prompted the decoy to say ous and correct with a second line.  It worked, but I wondered how the bad guy (decoy) giving commands and corrections would affect the dog in both fight drive and in real life or later in personal protection.  I want to title him but I also want a dog that listens only to my commands, does not like or respect or fear the decoy and knows the difference between the sleeve and the man and does not prefer the sleeve.  I don't think I have a weak nerved dog, but I also know I could ruin a good dog by doing the wrong thing.  Want to avoid that, so that is why I asked for other folks advice/thoughts.  Thank you so much for taking the time to answer!  I wish that old method of training still existed.






 

I have one dog who is trained through SchH3 (have not titled yet due to being sick for several months and then buying a house during which time I had planned to trial) and is titled (lower level) in a different type of protection.  As he matures we are beginning to shift the focus towards the other forms of protection work.  IMO it really depends on the dog.  If you don't have the right kind of dog for the work, then it doesn't really matter what you want to do.  My dog is better suited for PP, but a good club level dog for SchH and since SchH is far more stylized we've trained that first.  IMO the foundation has not really caused any problems.  But it all depends on your dog and how you approach the work.  I do NOT train that prey style of bitework or obedience training.  As a handler I've had no problems transitioning my training and handling.  I also have a younger dog I would love to do both with but he's really more suited as a good SchH/sport dog so that is my primary focus.  Maybe as he matures he will show me what I look for beyond sport training.  Don't get me wrong I love SchH and that is still where I spend the most time but it is just not the same, doesn't really show off the type of dog *I* like to own and train the way some other protection venues do.

A very good thread and every post has been great guys.
Hank

Ok how old is your dog?

As one person told me it depends on a variety of items

1) The handler
2) The trainer/decy
3) Bloodlines of the dog
4) The dog itself

In depth

The handler = Have to know what they are doing and not be screwing up the dog (i.e. pushing the dog into defense too early, watching too much shit on youtube and trying it at home and now knowing what you are doing.)

The Decoy/Helper = They HAVE to know what they are doing and have done it before on several occasions.  The number of decoys/helpers who know how to do it aren't in big supply.  Person has to be experienced at reading dogs and making the transition.  Seriously it is extremely hard to find a good decoy/helper who knows what they are doing.  Some can start doing it in Sch training.  Agan they know what they are doing b/c they are experienced with doing it.

Bloodlines of the dog = Some bloodlines produce better sportdogs while others produces better all around dogs, etc.  You Have to know the bloodlines of your dog intimately to knwo what you can expect from that type of dog.  Some dogs can do great at both.  Again get yourself familiar with the lines.

Dog itself = Some dogs have "it" and some don't.  No amount of work will help b/c under stress the dog will revert back to genetics.  Some dogs are just better at one phase than another & some can handle both.  You have to work with the dog and at it's pace and not force anything.  Be honest with youself and the dog.

Here is the bloodline of that dog:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=660197

Handler might screw up the dog..that is me and I am just learning. but the trainer and decoy are experienced and one and the same person.

What are you calling personal protection?

Biting the sleeve?

Hidden sleeve?

Full bitesuit?

Targetted bites?

Multiple decoys?

Dirty bites? 

The definition of personal protection is huge, as you're taking on substantially greater liability without clearly having identified the intention of the goal.

We train in ringsport, which is a lot closer to a personal protection dog than Schutzhund, and even so remains a sport.

Can you do it?  Sure.

Is your dog capable?  Hmmm....maybe?

Do you really think you would benefit substantially from having that type of a dog?

If so, how do you feel about the increased liability?

What is the threat you're preparing for?  Big differences here.

Cheers...

I already have "that kind of dog" x 3.   4 if you include my formerly red zone rescue who now cuddles with my cats.  All of my dogs are highly civil, which is what I like.  Like any civil GSD, all of them will bite if I am under threat.  All of them are confident.  Rarely bark, don't growl, don't back up, don't show hackles.  In fact one of my males would only bite the helper when he touched ME with  the whip and then the whip was taken from him and it was ON but the sleeve was not his goal.  After that, the helper could not speak to me without the dog lighting up.  I had an even more civil dog than all of them, may he RIP.  Best dog I ever knew.  Calmest, most obedient dog that could not be backed down by anyone, armed or not. 

I need to title all of them for obvious reasons regarding continuation of pink papers for progeny and, lets face it, that title and the KKL rating means something.

After that, I want them to be what I always have had in a GSD, obedient, calm, and willing to fight to the end if that is what is needed to protect me.  So, as far as PP, I want them to be able to do muzzle and suit work, different scenarios such as those developed by the American Personal Protection Association.  I think it is more of a liability, given I already own these dogs, to fail to train them to be under complete control.

My former work involved decades of dealing with criminals, including serial murderers, rapists, people who are mentally ill, and I need and want that kind of dog as sometimes they want to "visit" including one violent felon who drove 2000 miles to find me, demanding I "stop the voices."  I looked all over to find that kind of dog and that is the kind of dog I have had for 20 years, some better than others. 

I just want tips on transitioning as I must title them first.

Besides, I LOVE my dogs.  I would give my life for my dogs.  I want to be the best trainer/owner handler I can be for my dogs, but I want and have the aloof, cvil calm dog.  After schutzhund, I  don't want to compete in PP, I just want my dog's to be highly skilled and practiced in different real world scenarios.

By the way, those were excellent questions because I used to do rescue and sooooo many people thought they wanted a big bad dog and they could not handle the dog, were not willing to take the time to train themselves or the dog and always the dog paid the price.  I am very new to schutzhund, but not to GSDs.  I wish everyone asked themselves those q's before getting a dog!

Now back to what to do/not do so they can transition and not become sleeve driven sport dogs only.