Fun with show toons - Page 5

Well I have to admit this is the most civil conversation on the subject we have had in a long time . I do appreciate it.  Yes a 95 pound GSD is to much for ME to handle, slow as slugs on the feild as well and totally impractical in the feild.  Someone said I am not PICKING correct working lines... Umm no I dont get to pick, they are sent to me for training. so nope i dont get to pick. I love working dogs that with every correction swing to rip my arm off.  It is awesome!  So yup I do like a dog with handler sensitivity.  That is not going to change.  You can go on and on about how it is just GSD behavior it is correct all that stuff but I am sticking to my guns.  That is not nor will it ever be correct GSD temperment. That is the big divide with show and working line people. I dont care what the breeding a CORRECT gsd should be able to take correction without becoming aggressive, should be able to settle in the home ( I've had lots of showlines that can't as well) should be able to behave politley when guest are over. Working or show I dont care, but those are in my mind requirements in the breed. Yup those dogs on the tape were shit no question, in fact no one has said otherwise BUT DID THEY PASS THE TEMPERMENT TEST??? Why won't anyone answer that simple question. If they passed then there is indeed a problem, but if they failed well that is what the test is for.   I can't seem to find any horrible video from working lines,  are showline breeders just asking for it by having that kind of video out there?   Wish I had video of the bitch I had in here last year spinning and peeing herself every time you walked by her.  Yup she could bite the sleeve but was a wreck every moment when not in "C". A leaf would bounce past the hackles would go up and the screaming would start.  Anyone want to send me a "Good"  Working line for a month  ( free of charge) so I can see these calm, trainable, sleeve happy monsters in action.  Maybe I just get sent the worst of the worst who knows,  the challenge is now out there LOL!   I'll start a showline at the same time and video the progress.  It could be a hoot :)

       As long as the cappers don't pass be they show or working then all is good, Right?...

       Let's say more of the passers are working line, that really should not be too surprising being that the working line GSD are bred with function as the main focus...Show lines are trying to incorporate that function, but also enjoy certain conformation characteristics too...The show line folks have their work cutout for them, as beauty ( as the majority see beauty) and brains are hard to find in the same package...But, not impossible...: )

      I am very limited in my knowledge on this topic, but is there not ONE video of ONE show line GSD that the working line folks will give credit as a good representation of temperament and type....ONE...???...Who's body has not failed them untimely....

Deanna,

Yes, NASS is a WDA event but you're not going to see working *lines* participating.  You're going to see showlines.

I actually went down there to meet up with some handlers to talk about how I would pursue getting a show (G, SG) rating on my male since I would like to KKL him at some point.

I was NOT down there to participate, my working line dogs wouldn't be allowed in the ring, just down there to talk to people.  You should have seen the 'down the nose' looks I got from the actual participants.  I think I heard a collective sigh of relief when I put my 'ugly' dog back up in the crate.

Here are some videos from the 2010 NASS.  You can see for yourself its all show lines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnQQdQRsrnw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHyhRA3pGw&feature=related

working line GSD are bred with function as the main focus...Show lines are trying to incorporate that function, but also enjoy certain conformation characteristics too..

I would argue that no, showlines dogs do not enjoy conformation characteristics. In my opinion, showlines people always have to One-Up each other (otherwise how will they win?), which after many years has resulted in gross exaggeration of nearly all the standard's features. Breeders really should be focusing on the breed staying confomationally average within itself. The problem is that the very act of showing in conformation HAS to result in the destruction of the breed...just because people have to get their dogs to stand out. It's unavoidable. How else did the English bulldog turn into a faceless dwarf?

Yes, I would definitely say the majority of workinglines have the better conformation according to the standard even.  Also, I disagree with the  statement that the majority of folks think the showlines are more beautiful, certainly not the majority of folks I talk too, and those are folks that do not like the GSD BECAUSE of what the showring has done to it.  They are always pleasantly surprised when they see the conformation of my dogs and the colour too for that matter.

but is there not ONE video of ONE show line GSD that the working line folks will give credit as a good representation of temperament and type....ONE...???

Deanna, I don't really trust videos. I have seen some vids in which showlines dogs looked like they were doing pretty well, but 1)I never saw their pedigrees so they could be part WL and 2)god made editing functions to take out the bad parts. You would have to wait until someone from a club, preferably a helper or decoy, tells you they have a SL dog that's as strong as AVERAGE WL dogs.

but is there not ONE video of ONE show line GSD that the working line folks will give credit as a good representation of temperament and type....ONE...???

In a word ... no.

VM is right, a video can be made to look good and often by itself can just look good but if you have an understanding of whats going on between helper, dog and handler on the field, you can always see the hardwired differences between what a working line dog brings to the field and what a show line dog brings to the field.

    RHLAR,

      Are working lines not permitted to show, or is it just frowned upon?...

      I do not like to hear that the show folks would snub you and your dogs while attending an event....People are full of sh  crap...; (

     I have always admired the West German show line type, but that was before I was introduced to the Dark Black Sable Working line...Now I am torn between which will be my next GSD...I have seen some working line dogs that gave me goose bumps...Absolutely one of the most beautiful creatures I have ever seen.....: )

    I personally do not think that show lines have a lock on beauty..On the other hand I think that there are nice examples of show lines that can have a correct work ethic...: )


     Where is Prager...???....He is a working line person, he would be fair and knowledgeable about this topic...He will know names of show lines that can work...Does anyone know of an older thread that he or someone else knowledgeable made on this topic...     

Oh I could pay a fee and enter him, they'll be more than happy to take my money but I wouldn't be entering with any hope in hell of placing higher than G and low G at that.

Here is a picture of my boy, about as 'stacked' as I can get him to stand still for.



When I took him down and was talking with the potential handler, the opinion was he was too straight, too long, had a tight coat, his tail is not standard.  His only 'redeeming' features were his pigment and his eyes are dark.  So if I put him in the show ring of say 20 dogs, if I get out of there G20 I'd be happy and to get out of there G15 I'd have to have 'connections' with the judge.

So why would any working line person spend the hundreds of dollars it costs to go to a show like the NASS when you know going in, you're going to be placed behind almost every other black and red show line dog in the competition?

Now my male is half West German working lines and half Czech.  If I tried to take my full Czech female into a show ring ... *just winces* She is what showline people refer to when they say 'coyote'.



Yet look at her fly.



She couldn't 'gait' to save her life but I can send her over that meter wall and up and down a 6 foot A-frame from morning to night and know she's going to be sound as a bell in hips and elbows and raring to go when we wake up the next morning.

At this point we're really to a stage where we're trying to compare apples to oranges, the breed feels so split.  I like working lines and wouldn't own a show line if you paid me because what I want in a dog is in the working lines.  But what is being bred for is just completely different.

RLHAR, the problem is that most of us are not good enough to see what a helper sees. So I get all excited about some dog, just to have Slam or Jeff or someone like that point out what ought to have been obvious to me about the dog's temperament. LOL. I just gave up. I can tell a good one in person, and that's my limit. I don't have ANY experience with doing helper work so I have no idea what a dog looks like from the other side. My helpers yell OW! MY NIPPLE! and I figure my dogs are doing well...

(they are on bite suit)