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by elisabeth00117 on 26 April 2011 - 18:04
Hello everyone,
I am an avid reader/lurker but do not post much on this board. I am hoping that those here who feed a homecooked diet to their dogs would offer some insight and/or help.
First, let me start off by saying that I have ZERO interest in kibble or pre-made raw or pre-made "homecooked" diets.
A little background information:
Stark is 2 years old and since he was 10 weeks old, has been raw fed.
He has never been a dog who was food motivated or a dog who ate well, he is very picky.
Stark will go DAYS without eating. He will eat his MM (muscle meat) and leave his RMB (raw meaty bones) and then eat his OM (organ meat). Or one day eat his RBM and leave the rest. Then go a few days with no eating, then possibly eat half of his meal, then go another day without eating.
He has never lost weight because of this issue and has always remained at a great weight for his build and height. I do worry about him not recieveing the proper nutrients because we are very active (train in schH, agility and soon will add herding to that list plus we do a lot of hiking and swimming).
His meal plan looked like this:
2lbs
50% RMB (1lbs)
45% MM (14.4ounces)
5% OM (1.6ounces)
He gets a wide variety of protein and does not have any particular favorites. Trust me, I have tried everything.
He has been on probiotics for a few months and has always been supplimented with Vit.C and fish oil (2000mgs of both).
Current predicament:
For the past few weeks I have been preparing Stark's meals from home. He is getting a home cooked meal that looks like the following:
1 lbs - boiled ground beef (or lamb, or chicken but mostly beef)
*I do plan on adding back in raw chicken gibblets though, they just haven't been avaliable at the grocery store yet.
1 cup - double boiled brown rice (double the water needed and cooked twice as long)
1/2 cup of Kale or Green beans or carrots (usually Kale though)
1/2 cup of boiled sweet potatoe mashed
1 tbls sized or more piece of raw beef liver
1-2 tsp of green tripe
1 egg (raw or boiled - usually raw - shell included)
1 tsp or more (depending on if I give the whole egg with shell or not) of ground egg shell (bake them for a few seonds in the oven to dry them out, grind them and sprinkle in food)
2000mg of Vit. C
2000mg of Fish oil
Now, I have a few concerns and questions.
1. How much am I suppose to be feeding? Do I go by the 2lb rule like I did with raw? (2-3% of their idea adult body weight?)
2. Does this look balanced? Enough/too much calcium? Protein? Grain? Veg? I really do not like feeding grains, is there something I can suppliment that with?
3. A friend mentioned 40% protein, 30% grain, 30% veggie, but that doesn't really fit for what I feel comfortable with.. or should it?
4. Has anyone ever done a homecooked diet without grains?
As you can see, I am out of my element here. I don't want to feed this way but Stark has been eating every single meal since I started. He is actually inhaling his food for a change.
I have tried to go back to raw but he has snuffed his nose at it. He just won't eat it no matter what I do.
Any suggestions or opinions would be great.
It was recommended to me to purchase a few books (see below) and I have just done that, so I am just looking for information while I wait on those. Especially from those who feed home cooked meals.
I am an avid reader/lurker but do not post much on this board. I am hoping that those here who feed a homecooked diet to their dogs would offer some insight and/or help.
First, let me start off by saying that I have ZERO interest in kibble or pre-made raw or pre-made "homecooked" diets.
A little background information:
Stark is 2 years old and since he was 10 weeks old, has been raw fed.
He has never been a dog who was food motivated or a dog who ate well, he is very picky.
Stark will go DAYS without eating. He will eat his MM (muscle meat) and leave his RMB (raw meaty bones) and then eat his OM (organ meat). Or one day eat his RBM and leave the rest. Then go a few days with no eating, then possibly eat half of his meal, then go another day without eating.
He has never lost weight because of this issue and has always remained at a great weight for his build and height. I do worry about him not recieveing the proper nutrients because we are very active (train in schH, agility and soon will add herding to that list plus we do a lot of hiking and swimming).
His meal plan looked like this:
2lbs
50% RMB (1lbs)
45% MM (14.4ounces)
5% OM (1.6ounces)
He gets a wide variety of protein and does not have any particular favorites. Trust me, I have tried everything.
He has been on probiotics for a few months and has always been supplimented with Vit.C and fish oil (2000mgs of both).
Current predicament:
For the past few weeks I have been preparing Stark's meals from home. He is getting a home cooked meal that looks like the following:
1 lbs - boiled ground beef (or lamb, or chicken but mostly beef)
*I do plan on adding back in raw chicken gibblets though, they just haven't been avaliable at the grocery store yet.
1 cup - double boiled brown rice (double the water needed and cooked twice as long)
1/2 cup of Kale or Green beans or carrots (usually Kale though)
1/2 cup of boiled sweet potatoe mashed
1 tbls sized or more piece of raw beef liver
1-2 tsp of green tripe
1 egg (raw or boiled - usually raw - shell included)
1 tsp or more (depending on if I give the whole egg with shell or not) of ground egg shell (bake them for a few seonds in the oven to dry them out, grind them and sprinkle in food)
2000mg of Vit. C
2000mg of Fish oil
Now, I have a few concerns and questions.
1. How much am I suppose to be feeding? Do I go by the 2lb rule like I did with raw? (2-3% of their idea adult body weight?)
2. Does this look balanced? Enough/too much calcium? Protein? Grain? Veg? I really do not like feeding grains, is there something I can suppliment that with?
3. A friend mentioned 40% protein, 30% grain, 30% veggie, but that doesn't really fit for what I feel comfortable with.. or should it?
4. Has anyone ever done a homecooked diet without grains?
As you can see, I am out of my element here. I don't want to feed this way but Stark has been eating every single meal since I started. He is actually inhaling his food for a change.
I have tried to go back to raw but he has snuffed his nose at it. He just won't eat it no matter what I do.
Any suggestions or opinions would be great.
It was recommended to me to purchase a few books (see below) and I have just done that, so I am just looking for information while I wait on those. Especially from those who feed home cooked meals.
by elisabeth00117 on 26 April 2011 - 18:04
My message got cut off at the end:
It was recommended to me to purchase a few books (see below) and I have just done that, so I am just looking for information while I wait on those. Especially from those who feed home cooked meals.
Amazon.com: Dr. Pitcairn's New Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats (9781579549732): Richard H. Pitcairn, Susan Hubble Pitcairn: Books
Amazon.com: Dr. Pitcairn's New Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats (9781579549732): Richard H. Pitcairn, Susan Hubble Pitcairn: Books
K9 Kitchen
Thank you very much. I look forward to reading the responses.
It was recommended to me to purchase a few books (see below) and I have just done that, so I am just looking for information while I wait on those. Especially from those who feed home cooked meals.
Amazon.com: Dr. Pitcairn's New Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats (9781579549732): Richard H. Pitcairn, Susan Hubble Pitcairn: Books
K9 Kitchen
Thank you very much. I look forward to reading the responses.
by Nans gsd on 26 April 2011 - 20:04
Well the books above are all great. Read and maybe get some good ideas as well as responses that have been tested and worked. It looks like you have your bases covered as far a nutritional values; I would probably drop the grain completely; maybe use oatmeal occassionally; also brown rice on occasion; otherwise if he is eating, that is what you want. I would probably drop the Vitamin C as dogs make their own. And also it is in the veggies you feed especially kale. Maybe add red bell pepper if you want the Vit C or spinach. Vitamin C sometimes does not agree with digestion and 2000 mg is a lot. I would add a Vitamin E capsule with his fish oil. 400 mg.
All the rest looks good; I would probably feed equivalent to 4 cups of kibble in your home cooking; maybe a little more if he is still hungary. I would feed him twice per day; smaller amounts like 2 cups AM, 2-3 cups PM or even 3 cups AM and 3 cups PM. Go up to 6 cups until he reaches desired weight then give a little less. You do not want any excess fat on him. Seems all other ingredients are OK; if you are not sure after reading the books that you have covered all your vitamin equirements; you can always add a multiple vitamin to his regime. Or use a powdered form. I did notice that you cook your meats well done; maybe try to rare cook them and not kill all the digestive enzymes would be probably my only suggestion as cooking does destroy nutrients. Best of luck Nan
All the rest looks good; I would probably feed equivalent to 4 cups of kibble in your home cooking; maybe a little more if he is still hungary. I would feed him twice per day; smaller amounts like 2 cups AM, 2-3 cups PM or even 3 cups AM and 3 cups PM. Go up to 6 cups until he reaches desired weight then give a little less. You do not want any excess fat on him. Seems all other ingredients are OK; if you are not sure after reading the books that you have covered all your vitamin equirements; you can always add a multiple vitamin to his regime. Or use a powdered form. I did notice that you cook your meats well done; maybe try to rare cook them and not kill all the digestive enzymes would be probably my only suggestion as cooking does destroy nutrients. Best of luck Nan
by uvw on 26 April 2011 - 23:04
just wanted to offer an opinion/suggestion...
50% rmb is pretty high for daily meals. he could very well be getting full on the bones, and just not wanting to eat any more. a 1 lb bone, if consumed in its entirety could take up to a week to poop out. so imagine eating a 1 lb bone every day. that could also be why he's leaving the bone and eating the meat and organs. most people (if not feeding prey model) will try to keep bone down around 10-20%.
just a thought.
also, nans is right about the vit c, and it can be harsh on the digestive system. if for some reason you need to add vit c (and you probably don't), you can try ester-c which should be easier on digestion.
50% rmb is pretty high for daily meals. he could very well be getting full on the bones, and just not wanting to eat any more. a 1 lb bone, if consumed in its entirety could take up to a week to poop out. so imagine eating a 1 lb bone every day. that could also be why he's leaving the bone and eating the meat and organs. most people (if not feeding prey model) will try to keep bone down around 10-20%.
just a thought.
also, nans is right about the vit c, and it can be harsh on the digestive system. if for some reason you need to add vit c (and you probably don't), you can try ester-c which should be easier on digestion.
by Pridhams on 26 April 2011 - 23:04
The homecooked diet you're making for Stark looks as if it covers all the bases on biological value- but it looks a little short on fats, perhaps you could lose some of the rice and substitute a tablespoonful of Salmon Oil, (Kranch do an excellent salmon oil) or a small tin of sardines in oil, or even a good quality edible linseed (flax) oil on a regular basis
The other thing that I personally would like to see a little more of is offal - I noted that you include some liver, and plan to re-include chicken giblets when you can get them, but kidney, (any species), heart, pancreas will all supply nutrient, vitamins, enzymes and minerals if you don't overcook.
You'll destroy the biotin in the egg yolk by cooking it - yes, I know the avidin in egg white also makes biotin unavailable, but if Stark will still eat raw yolks, that would be good.
Can you give Stark a raw bone, say a pig's trotter or a beef rib two or three times a week? - the cooked diet is good, but unless you're going to be brushing his teeth, he'll need something to clean up the food debris and bacterial plaque which will accumulate on his teeth and gums from the softer food he's now getting.
Maggie
The other thing that I personally would like to see a little more of is offal - I noted that you include some liver, and plan to re-include chicken giblets when you can get them, but kidney, (any species), heart, pancreas will all supply nutrient, vitamins, enzymes and minerals if you don't overcook.
You'll destroy the biotin in the egg yolk by cooking it - yes, I know the avidin in egg white also makes biotin unavailable, but if Stark will still eat raw yolks, that would be good.
Can you give Stark a raw bone, say a pig's trotter or a beef rib two or three times a week? - the cooked diet is good, but unless you're going to be brushing his teeth, he'll need something to clean up the food debris and bacterial plaque which will accumulate on his teeth and gums from the softer food he's now getting.
Maggie
by Bhaugh on 27 April 2011 - 04:04
I may be off base here and if so forgive me its late for me BUT have you tried flavoring the meat with some sprinkled garlic powder or some chicken broth or beef and reducing the amount you eat? He might be a poor eater because YOU change to accommodate him not the other way around. I know from experience when a dog cant smell what he is eating from a medical condition, he eats poorly. Just another thought.
Ive had many dogs start out picky but once they realize that they eat what I give (I feed raw) or they dont eat, they learn to eat whats given AND are given the usual 15 min to eat it. If they dont, they have to wait for the next day. The only exception I make is new dogs coming in to make the change or a sick dog.
Just some thoughts.
Ive had many dogs start out picky but once they realize that they eat what I give (I feed raw) or they dont eat, they learn to eat whats given AND are given the usual 15 min to eat it. If they dont, they have to wait for the next day. The only exception I make is new dogs coming in to make the change or a sick dog.
Just some thoughts.
by elisabeth00117 on 27 April 2011 - 06:04
@ Nans gsd:
Thank you for your advice. It is greatly appreciated.
I do plan to switch out the veggies and grain (I want to cut this out completely if I can, just not sure what to suppliment it with but your suggestions sound great) but he has only been on this diet maybe, 1-2 weeks. I will get some Bell peper tomorrow and he has gotton spinach as well as green beans and carrots.
As for the meat, I don't really "boil-boil" it. I basically pop it in the boiling water and then flash boil it and pull it out. It is still quite raw in the middle. Just enough to get some colour on there basically (I make meatballs so they are easier to handle).
I meansured out his food tonight and it is about 5-6 cups of food (about 3lbs). Tonight I did something a little different and made about 3/4 of the meal protein (beef and chicken).
Thank you for your suggestions, I will definitely put them to use!
@ uvw:
Thank you for posting.
I have been doing the 50% RMB for years and years and have never had a problem feeding this way. I know prey model is a bit different but I am not sure how to work with that. As for the bone being digested, I actually didn't know that it took that long? Very interesting.
Stark actually doesn't favour one thing to another when it comes to not eating. He sometimes will not eat for 3-4 days (honestly, no exaggerating) and that is with no treats at all either. No vomitting bile, no getting into anything, etc.. He will eat the MM, then not eat the RBM, then eat the RBM then not eat the MM (always eats his OM usually). Then he goes days with nothing. Will take one or two bites, then doesn't eat for a day or two. It is very sporatic and unpredictable.
I have never owned a dog like him, one who doesn't scarf down their food.
As for the Vit. C, I have heard the same thing about the Ester-C and am definitely going to look into that. Thank you for bringing it up again to remind me. Great advice.
@ Maggie:
Thanks for the post, great advice there!
I do switch proteins and Stark does get sardines, other fatty proteins as well. I just used this as a guideline of what I have been doing over the past week while I work out the kinks. I probably should of mentioned that. I also give Salmon oil every coupld of days but have stopped when I increased his fish oil for a skin issue as I was told that it could upset his tummy.
Again, the proteins (muscle meats) I used are switched out pretty often (every day is basically a new protein) and beef heart is a regular staple here. Stark won't eat kidney, even if I fry it up for him. Not sure why, but he never has, no matter how I cook it (won't even go near it when it's raw - I think it's the texture).
As for the egg, I give it mostly raw (like 99.9% of the time) but was just throwing it in the boiling pot every once in awhile for a change. He usually gets raw eggs 4-5 times per week when he was on raw.
As for the raw bone, I have been trying to get him to eat it but he just won't. He leaves it, maybe a sniff or two but then walks away. I am trying to think of ways I can ensure that he is getting the benefits that a raw diet gave (teeth and gums, and of course the nutrients). I will definitely keep trying to feed raw (maybe this is a phase?!) but will need to come up with other ways to work with him.
@ Bhaugh:
Yes, I have tried everything.
This has been an on-going issue since he came home at 8 weeks (he just turned 2).
At first I thought it was a medical issue, so we brought him in had his thyroid checked, checked for SIBO, etc. and it all came back fine.
I haven't changed the way I feed him in nea
Thank you for your advice. It is greatly appreciated.
I do plan to switch out the veggies and grain (I want to cut this out completely if I can, just not sure what to suppliment it with but your suggestions sound great) but he has only been on this diet maybe, 1-2 weeks. I will get some Bell peper tomorrow and he has gotton spinach as well as green beans and carrots.
As for the meat, I don't really "boil-boil" it. I basically pop it in the boiling water and then flash boil it and pull it out. It is still quite raw in the middle. Just enough to get some colour on there basically (I make meatballs so they are easier to handle).
I meansured out his food tonight and it is about 5-6 cups of food (about 3lbs). Tonight I did something a little different and made about 3/4 of the meal protein (beef and chicken).
Thank you for your suggestions, I will definitely put them to use!
@ uvw:
Thank you for posting.
I have been doing the 50% RMB for years and years and have never had a problem feeding this way. I know prey model is a bit different but I am not sure how to work with that. As for the bone being digested, I actually didn't know that it took that long? Very interesting.
Stark actually doesn't favour one thing to another when it comes to not eating. He sometimes will not eat for 3-4 days (honestly, no exaggerating) and that is with no treats at all either. No vomitting bile, no getting into anything, etc.. He will eat the MM, then not eat the RBM, then eat the RBM then not eat the MM (always eats his OM usually). Then he goes days with nothing. Will take one or two bites, then doesn't eat for a day or two. It is very sporatic and unpredictable.
I have never owned a dog like him, one who doesn't scarf down their food.
As for the Vit. C, I have heard the same thing about the Ester-C and am definitely going to look into that. Thank you for bringing it up again to remind me. Great advice.
@ Maggie:
Thanks for the post, great advice there!
I do switch proteins and Stark does get sardines, other fatty proteins as well. I just used this as a guideline of what I have been doing over the past week while I work out the kinks. I probably should of mentioned that. I also give Salmon oil every coupld of days but have stopped when I increased his fish oil for a skin issue as I was told that it could upset his tummy.
Again, the proteins (muscle meats) I used are switched out pretty often (every day is basically a new protein) and beef heart is a regular staple here. Stark won't eat kidney, even if I fry it up for him. Not sure why, but he never has, no matter how I cook it (won't even go near it when it's raw - I think it's the texture).
As for the egg, I give it mostly raw (like 99.9% of the time) but was just throwing it in the boiling pot every once in awhile for a change. He usually gets raw eggs 4-5 times per week when he was on raw.
As for the raw bone, I have been trying to get him to eat it but he just won't. He leaves it, maybe a sniff or two but then walks away. I am trying to think of ways I can ensure that he is getting the benefits that a raw diet gave (teeth and gums, and of course the nutrients). I will definitely keep trying to feed raw (maybe this is a phase?!) but will need to come up with other ways to work with him.
@ Bhaugh:
Yes, I have tried everything.
This has been an on-going issue since he came home at 8 weeks (he just turned 2).
At first I thought it was a medical issue, so we brought him in had his thyroid checked, checked for SIBO, etc. and it all came back fine.
I haven't changed the way I feed him in nea
by elisabeth00117 on 27 April 2011 - 06:04
@ Bhaugh:
Yes, I have tried everything.
This has been an on-going issue since he came home at 8 weeks (he just turned 2).
At first I thought it was a medical issue, so we brought him in had his thyroid checked, checked for SIBO, etc. and it all came back fine.
I haven't changed the way I feed him in nearly 2 years. I have tried to add some flavour by adding garlic, herbs, etc. and even searing the outside to increase flavour; nothing.
Like I mentioned, Stark will go 5 days without eating, even if he is out training every day for long periods of time, he still won't touch his food. I have tried feeding him at different times, in different areas, etc..
I really don't think it's a case of "he's just picky, he'll eat it if he's hungry" because if it was he would relent and eat. After 2 years of this.. I don't think it's that. I am not a "soft owner" and am pretty tough so I don't play around, but this is a matter of him getting the proper nutrients for the lifestyle he leads. I don't want him to become ill or malnurised which is my biggest fear. He is pretty lean (I can see ribs and back bone) which I like and don't want to change, but he can't afford to loose much.
I appreciate you bringing it up though, I understand you are not aware of what we have gone through to this point as I don't post here but if you would like the forum where I frequent with my many, many posts about this.. lol.. there are a lot.. lol... then I would be happy to provide that. It's a long boring read, but much information about nutrition, raw diets, suppliments, etc..
I will try the suggestions given by all of you, and will definitely keep posting about this. I hope to get my books soon so I can share and do some reading and educate myself on this new way of feeding.
Just for the heck of it, here is the "picky eater". ;) He just celebrated his 2nd birthday.
[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g391/stark_0091/April%2022/April22112.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g391/stark_0091/April%2024/April24020-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g391/stark_0091/April%2024/April24022-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g391/stark_0091/April%2022/April22120.jpg[/IMG]
Thank you so much everyone! :)
Yes, I have tried everything.
This has been an on-going issue since he came home at 8 weeks (he just turned 2).
At first I thought it was a medical issue, so we brought him in had his thyroid checked, checked for SIBO, etc. and it all came back fine.
I haven't changed the way I feed him in nearly 2 years. I have tried to add some flavour by adding garlic, herbs, etc. and even searing the outside to increase flavour; nothing.
Like I mentioned, Stark will go 5 days without eating, even if he is out training every day for long periods of time, he still won't touch his food. I have tried feeding him at different times, in different areas, etc..
I really don't think it's a case of "he's just picky, he'll eat it if he's hungry" because if it was he would relent and eat. After 2 years of this.. I don't think it's that. I am not a "soft owner" and am pretty tough so I don't play around, but this is a matter of him getting the proper nutrients for the lifestyle he leads. I don't want him to become ill or malnurised which is my biggest fear. He is pretty lean (I can see ribs and back bone) which I like and don't want to change, but he can't afford to loose much.
I appreciate you bringing it up though, I understand you are not aware of what we have gone through to this point as I don't post here but if you would like the forum where I frequent with my many, many posts about this.. lol.. there are a lot.. lol... then I would be happy to provide that. It's a long boring read, but much information about nutrition, raw diets, suppliments, etc..
I will try the suggestions given by all of you, and will definitely keep posting about this. I hope to get my books soon so I can share and do some reading and educate myself on this new way of feeding.
Just for the heck of it, here is the "picky eater". ;) He just celebrated his 2nd birthday.
[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g391/stark_0091/April%2022/April22112.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g391/stark_0091/April%2024/April24020-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g391/stark_0091/April%2024/April24022-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g391/stark_0091/April%2022/April22120.jpg[/IMG]
Thank you so much everyone! :)
by Domenic on 27 April 2011 - 10:04
Good morning Elizabeth,Just want to give you the address of a website that can show you what a complete and balanced diet looks like.I do actually have a diet that I paid for by 2 different Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionists but forwarding it is another story.Ok here it is just so you can have a look.www.balanceit.com When you go to this site they will give you a free diet for the first time.You can mix and choose the ingredients you need.You will have to enter a code that they will provide you.Hope all goes well.
by realmccoy on 27 April 2011 - 13:04
One of my puppies was a very picky eater, and used to go on for days without eating so we got her on this
If you wanna save some time from cooking once in a while.
I still break an egg with the shell into it once in a while, and give a tea spoon of refrigerated fish oil every 3 or 4 days or so.
She would eat it out of my hand and chase me around for it. Give it a try.
Here's whats already in it:
Ingredients & Guaranteed analysis
Made with the finest ingredients that provide the essential, natural nutrition necessary for your pet's peak performance. Our nutritionally balanced raw pet food contains the optimum sources of dietary goodness and does NOT contain any fillers or grains.
BEEF INGREDIENTS
Beef, beef tripe, beef lung, ground beef bone, beef liver, beef heart, beef kidney, dried organic kelp, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, cobalt sulfate, choline chloride, dl-alpha tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), niacin, calcium pantothenate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin.
FROZEN BEEF
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude protein (min).......................16%
Crude Fat (min)............................. 10%
Crude Fiber (max)....................... 2.2%
Moisture (max)........................... 70.3%
Ash (max)...................................... 2.6%
Calcium (min)............................ 0.54%
Phosphorus (min)..................... 0.35%
Magnesium (max)..................... 0.03%
Growing puppies/kittens and pregnant or nursing dogs/cats may require as much as 3%-4% of body weight fed per day during early growth and high bio-performance requirement periods. *If feeding a 50/50 diet (using AFS as a nutrition strengthener to some other product), please remember to reduce the volume of the other product by 50%.
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