Positive training question - Page 1

A topic on another board brought up a point.  Since there are very few people on that board that work their dogs, I figured I would ask here.

The person stated that more and more trainers in Policing and Schutzhund are using "purely positive" methods.  I use quotes because I understand there is no such thing as positive only.  I guess it could be better described as no physical corrections. 

Are you aware of trainers in these fields that use mostly R+ methods with no physical corrections?  I understand some use both positive reinforcement and corrections, however, I mean strictly no physical corrections.
What is the success rate?

This really depends on the dog your training. Each dog is different & needs to be trained in it's own way.
I have a bitch that I trained completely on a flat buckel collar with no corrections needed other than a simple displeasure tome & refusal of reward. Her obedience is excellent. but her willingness to please is off the chartes too. She is a pleasure to work with. Purely postive methods take longer to achieve the same results as traditional methods in training.  

I like to train all my puppies with postive methods only to shape behaviors & keep spirts high for training. Once they develop a strong bond of trust with me & love their training by the time their a year plus old, I'll start to add some form of corrections if needed to proof them. I don't consider the typical pain avoidance methods such as electric, pinch, & choke chains as the only means for corrections. Anything the dog will percieve as negative is a correction even if it's as simple as not giving them food / toy / attention / freedom off leash, etc...  

Ido prefer to use mostly postive methods, if I have the dog that allowes me to do this.
 

Why does everyone associate pain with training??  Does a mother not correct a puppy or young dog by biting it??  Why is it that we as humans cannot give dogs any credit for being able to handle pressure?

But the reason the mom biting the pup works as a corrections is because is hurts the pup. Not saying it is negative but it hurts and that is how it works. If  it tickled the pup then it would be useless.  But totally agree about humans not giving dogs credit for handling pressure. I think most dogs thrive off pressure it gets adrenaline going it is a language they understand.

Reggie

Not as much about pain as surprise and discomfort.

Yeah I was thinking that too after I sent it more of a surprise than actual pain. But what I do think is people equate physical corrections as abuse or negative. That is something I dont like. The negative action must be equalled (if that is a word) by the correction that should be adequate to that dog. Or you could be asking for trouble.
Reggie

Oh yeah Phil , that means you win I stand corrected. lol

Reggie

Apples and oranges.  Two different subjects.  People get confused when they try to integrate both into the same purpose. 

Positive reinforcement is for obedience training

Negative reinforcement is for stopping unwanted behavior and distraction proofing

When performed this way there is never any conflict between the two. 

Yet millions of handlers still will not understand this and the debate between positive and negative will likely go on for eternity. 

I am not a 50/50 balanced trainer.

I am a 100% positive reinforcement trainer.



..............yet I am also a 100% negative reinforcement trainer.




I'll leave it to you all to ponder what I have stated.

 Marker training is becoming more and more popular these days.  It gives the dog positive reinforcement like its favorite toy or food  when it does something right. When he does wrong or make a mistake there is no reward and the dog is told to do the excercise over again. By not getting the reward it is considered a negative reinforcement.  More and more people are using this in competitive training, not so much in police work.
Personally I like to teach the dog a command in a distraction free environment or I should say in a less distraction area, using motivational methods first. Then when I am sure he knows and understands what I am asking him to do I will add corrections for disobedience.  

Just to be clear, I am talking more specifically about protection training, bitework, etc. 
I do see many using positive methods to train obedience, etc. but I am wondering specifically in bitework.

These people are specifically saying NO corrections done.  I should say no physical corrections.