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by Prager on 02 October 2010 - 15:10
What is the reason for S&R being certified in airscenting or tracking but is not allowed to do both. That is by big boys in FEMA and so on. I personally think it is bad , VERY BAD idea and it smells by legal "stuff" to me. I got aware of this many years ago and am still wondering what is the purpose of this.
I personally always wanted my S&R dog to use all his senses and abilities to find a person. I am aware that dogs get lazy or prefer to look one way or the other ( like using eyes instead the nose or aiscent rather then track), but then it is up to the trainer to motivate the dog to use all faculties, senses and combinations of these as needed and not to force the dog to do and certify just in one and be forbidden to do the other.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
I personally always wanted my S&R dog to use all his senses and abilities to find a person. I am aware that dogs get lazy or prefer to look one way or the other ( like using eyes instead the nose or aiscent rather then track), but then it is up to the trainer to motivate the dog to use all faculties, senses and combinations of these as needed and not to force the dog to do and certify just in one and be forbidden to do the other.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 02 October 2010 - 15:10
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by cphudson on 02 October 2010 - 18:10
Hi Hans, when you train a SAR dog to air scent they are trained to go out & find ANY human scent with in a certain search area. During the area your searching your dog may find & alert you too a passing hiker or the lost person.
If your dog finds someone that is not the person you still reward, then get back to work finding the next person, that would hopefully be the lost person.
SAR dogs are not train to track, but instead to trail. Trailing they still follow a exact human scent, like tracking. But they differ, because tracking dogs are train to follow step by step the human makes. Trailing dogs just follow the human scent trail that is blown on the ground while the person is on the move, by their skin cells. The human trail can blow several feet away from the actual foot prints / tracks. Most air scenting dogs will automatically switch from air scenting to trailing when they get closer to their find.
Most tracking dogs are slower than trailing dogs. Tracking dogs need a virgin scent area in order to perform.
This normally never happens. When someone becomes lost first the fire & police departments go through the area to search out the person after family already did also. Now the area is filled with other scents, & could ruin the scent area for some dogs. Also dogs train in tracking can also learn to follow the scent of crush / disturbed earth more so than the actually foot steps themselves. If you have a bloodhood you don't have to worry about this but most other breeds you do. Tracking really used be saved for sport or bloodhounds.
Trailing is more effective & faster is your also going to be training a air scenting dog. Dogs should be train to trail / track before air scenting, or they won't be as reliable trailers.
Hope this helps, Carol
If your dog finds someone that is not the person you still reward, then get back to work finding the next person, that would hopefully be the lost person.
SAR dogs are not train to track, but instead to trail. Trailing they still follow a exact human scent, like tracking. But they differ, because tracking dogs are train to follow step by step the human makes. Trailing dogs just follow the human scent trail that is blown on the ground while the person is on the move, by their skin cells. The human trail can blow several feet away from the actual foot prints / tracks. Most air scenting dogs will automatically switch from air scenting to trailing when they get closer to their find.
Most tracking dogs are slower than trailing dogs. Tracking dogs need a virgin scent area in order to perform.
This normally never happens. When someone becomes lost first the fire & police departments go through the area to search out the person after family already did also. Now the area is filled with other scents, & could ruin the scent area for some dogs. Also dogs train in tracking can also learn to follow the scent of crush / disturbed earth more so than the actually foot steps themselves. If you have a bloodhood you don't have to worry about this but most other breeds you do. Tracking really used be saved for sport or bloodhounds.
Trailing is more effective & faster is your also going to be training a air scenting dog. Dogs should be train to trail / track before air scenting, or they won't be as reliable trailers.
Hope this helps, Carol
by mpuark05 on 02 October 2010 - 18:10
Another reason is, when there is a real lost person case, it's more efficient to bring a handler/dog team specialized in airscent AND another handler/dog team specialized in trailing, rather than a handler/dog team that's trained in both.
and also, cphudson is right. for airscent dogs, they're really searching for ANY person. while trailing they know who they're looking for.
and also, cphudson is right. for airscent dogs, they're really searching for ANY person. while trailing they know who they're looking for.
by Ibrahim on 02 October 2010 - 18:10
Carol & mpurak05,
I urge you to be more generous posting on this forum, many will benefit from your knowledge.
Hans,
Is that you in the picture? you are a very handsome young man.
Ibrahim
I urge you to be more generous posting on this forum, many will benefit from your knowledge.
Hans,
Is that you in the picture? you are a very handsome young man.
Ibrahim
by mpuark05 on 02 October 2010 - 20:10
A dog whether airscent, trailing, or cadaver uses all their sense/faculties and abilities at their disposal. The only difference is really the condition and method of search. For trailing we know the lost person's last known location and start trailing from there. For airscenting, it's a useful method for missing person where we don't really know their last known location, but we work the probable vicinity they are hidden in. I don't think a dog is refrained from using all their faculties and abilities in any of them. So really the training is more the condition and method, and it's likely that a dog who trains all the time in a particular condition/method is better than a dog who sometimes trains in a particular condition/method.
I really enjoy working with the trailing dog. Lots of people I think prefer training airscent because they like to sit back and watch their dog without having to worry about running with them on the lead.
I really enjoy working with the trailing dog. Lots of people I think prefer training airscent because they like to sit back and watch their dog without having to worry about running with them on the lead.
by deacon on 03 October 2010 - 01:10
I would like to know as well Hans! if I can train my PSD teams to do both, why can't S&R be allowed to? Makes absolutely "NO" sense to me!
by cphudson on 03 October 2010 - 12:10
I don't really understand it either. Back in the early 80's when I first started doing SAR, we began training dogs in trailing, cadaver, & air scenting. The dogs were able to do all 3 basic search types. More dogs couldn't get certified because of the dual training though, especially other breeds than Goldens, Lab's & GSD's. It's easier to get certified in one area at a time, & also train in one area at a time. But many dogs were able to do many types of searches; trailing, air scenting, water, wildness, urban & disaster. Then 9-11 happen & a new awareness to SAR started & more volunteers wanted to be involved. Fema began reorganizing SAR training procedures & certifications. Which needed to be done since many teams had their own way of training & standards to reach certifications. Now most SAR standards & training practices are more uniformed than they ever were in the past. This is for the safety, more stream line training, & to allow more dogs the ability to participate in SAR.
In the earlier days it was very difficult to find a dog that could do SAR. It was much harder for handlers to find seminars & training courses for their varies training also. Most people don't realize how much is really required in a good all purpose SAR dog. My dog in the past had to be able to ride on all machinery, including boats & helicopters. We repelled off cliff's, walk crossed rumble, had to do countless public demo's. Plus they have to ignore wild life when off leash, get along with other dogs, be good with strangers that may act oddly when found, have nerve to function in a high stress emotional environments, be agile & have a high endurance. All were very demanding on the dog's nerves, training, & ability. Many dogs seem to meet all the above but then once they are working all day, will give a false find so they can get their reward. These dogs work more for the rewards than doing the actual work it's self, or easily give up when things get tuff. Not to mention the the demands on the handler. The demands are the same for today's dogs but the training is better.
I think more dogs would have made it if they were trained differently. Especially because positive re-enforcement base training was just beginning to become popular. It was difficult to have a compulsive base trained dog listen off leash at a distance & out of sight from it's owners. Many of these dogs were great dogs, but felt the freedom from their owners for the first time in their lives they would take off & have fun. SAR is a fine balance of traits the dog must have to do well. Fema uniformed it so more dogs & handlers can certify now. But I wouldn't go as far to say they are against a dog to be trained in another type of search method.
In the earlier days it was very difficult to find a dog that could do SAR. It was much harder for handlers to find seminars & training courses for their varies training also. Most people don't realize how much is really required in a good all purpose SAR dog. My dog in the past had to be able to ride on all machinery, including boats & helicopters. We repelled off cliff's, walk crossed rumble, had to do countless public demo's. Plus they have to ignore wild life when off leash, get along with other dogs, be good with strangers that may act oddly when found, have nerve to function in a high stress emotional environments, be agile & have a high endurance. All were very demanding on the dog's nerves, training, & ability. Many dogs seem to meet all the above but then once they are working all day, will give a false find so they can get their reward. These dogs work more for the rewards than doing the actual work it's self, or easily give up when things get tuff. Not to mention the the demands on the handler. The demands are the same for today's dogs but the training is better.
I think more dogs would have made it if they were trained differently. Especially because positive re-enforcement base training was just beginning to become popular. It was difficult to have a compulsive base trained dog listen off leash at a distance & out of sight from it's owners. Many of these dogs were great dogs, but felt the freedom from their owners for the first time in their lives they would take off & have fun. SAR is a fine balance of traits the dog must have to do well. Fema uniformed it so more dogs & handlers can certify now. But I wouldn't go as far to say they are against a dog to be trained in another type of search method.
by jamesfountain98 on 03 October 2010 - 16:10
I'm a new member of a SAR team and my dog has been started on air scenting. I don't understand why dogs (especially the GSD) can't do both. The begining stages of air scent trainiing is very similiar to bite work in schutzhund, prey prey prey. Dogs chasing the victim and playing tug. Victim runs and hide a little off trail dog chases, finds, and play tug.
In schutzhund you can teach a dog to run blind in protection work and track in the same day. I've seen many dogs in schutzhund (although it was a fault) while running the blinds in trial, smell the helper up field and run straight to that blind.
Now I did here one person on my team who owns a blood hound state that if you train a dog to air scent first you can never get his nose back down for trailing
In schutzhund you can teach a dog to run blind in protection work and track in the same day. I've seen many dogs in schutzhund (although it was a fault) while running the blinds in trial, smell the helper up field and run straight to that blind.
Now I did here one person on my team who owns a blood hound state that if you train a dog to air scent first you can never get his nose back down for trailing
by jamesfountain98 on 03 October 2010 - 16:10
Also how do you know if you trailing dog is following ground disturbance or human skin cells. You lay the trail out the same way. I always theorized that a tracking dog would automatcally convert over to a trailing dog if it was trained on older more disturbed trails
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