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by Jeff Oehlsen on 07 October 2010 - 01:10
Like I said, I have gotten some really nice dogs from what you people are describing as "back yard" breeders. LOL
by tenmon on 14 October 2010 - 20:10
I am a newly registered member on this site but has viewed this site often. I am not sure that I am even qualified to make a remark on this subject but I feel "compelled" to do so.
As I read the various remark some for and against this individual that post the topic, I have to say that I am very disappointed in some of the "old timers" remarks. I have to say hats off to the poster. From a "temperament" stand point, it showed courage. At least from their stand point, they did what any reasonable and respectable breeder would do. Research. The love of the GSD and its breeding is what this individual is trying to do. No different than what some of you old timers will eventually do.
Maybe it was not having enough resources that made this individual not purchase the"acceptable" stud you all would have liked to have seen, but they saw the quality, (temperament and structural), that their "stud" brought to their planned program, and was satisified.
I don't think they did anything wrong or unworthy to not be in the same "institution" as some of you die hard GSD evangalist of the breed. Some of you pounded on them about OFA this OFA that. That would be nice, but as far as I'm concern that is a load of rubbish. Even when you put the best OFA'd subjects you are still going to get your duds, bad hip/elbowed, rat face puppies with hocked legs. Every breeding is a shot in the dark! You do not know what you are going to get! You guys have to remember that we are breeding from a set genetic pool. You move one gene here displaces one there, and you are just juggling them around to find an acceptable speciment. In this case whatever you breed for you will eventually get there, but you might not like the outcome on the other side!
One individual talked about breeding the best to the best. Another rubbish statement. Best to best doesn't mean a darn thing. You get more rubbish from such a breeding. You all have to take a look at the horse breeding program. Look at some of these well known kentucky winners, etc. and you will see how many winners they have bred when coupled with another excellent female. What about generation skip?
Where I'm going with this is that we should encourage and give guidelines to help this individual reach a higher level in their program instead of the bashing I see some of you dishing out. Take that up with the puppy mills, petsmart and all those that indiscriminately sell and breed out beloved breed.
As I read the various remark some for and against this individual that post the topic, I have to say that I am very disappointed in some of the "old timers" remarks. I have to say hats off to the poster. From a "temperament" stand point, it showed courage. At least from their stand point, they did what any reasonable and respectable breeder would do. Research. The love of the GSD and its breeding is what this individual is trying to do. No different than what some of you old timers will eventually do.
Maybe it was not having enough resources that made this individual not purchase the"acceptable" stud you all would have liked to have seen, but they saw the quality, (temperament and structural), that their "stud" brought to their planned program, and was satisified.
I don't think they did anything wrong or unworthy to not be in the same "institution" as some of you die hard GSD evangalist of the breed. Some of you pounded on them about OFA this OFA that. That would be nice, but as far as I'm concern that is a load of rubbish. Even when you put the best OFA'd subjects you are still going to get your duds, bad hip/elbowed, rat face puppies with hocked legs. Every breeding is a shot in the dark! You do not know what you are going to get! You guys have to remember that we are breeding from a set genetic pool. You move one gene here displaces one there, and you are just juggling them around to find an acceptable speciment. In this case whatever you breed for you will eventually get there, but you might not like the outcome on the other side!
One individual talked about breeding the best to the best. Another rubbish statement. Best to best doesn't mean a darn thing. You get more rubbish from such a breeding. You all have to take a look at the horse breeding program. Look at some of these well known kentucky winners, etc. and you will see how many winners they have bred when coupled with another excellent female. What about generation skip?
Where I'm going with this is that we should encourage and give guidelines to help this individual reach a higher level in their program instead of the bashing I see some of you dishing out. Take that up with the puppy mills, petsmart and all those that indiscriminately sell and breed out beloved breed.
by gagsd4 on 14 October 2010 - 21:10
Tenmon wrote:
"Even when you put the best OFA'd subjects you are still going to get your duds, bad hip/elbowed, rat face puppies with hocked legs. Every breeding is a shot in the dark! You do not know what you are going to get! "
Gotta disagree here! I looked at the writeup I did on my puppies before they were born. 16 months later, it perfectly describes what I ended up with. (I kept 2 out the 3 puppies born.)
I could not have been so accurate 5 years ago, but by studying the pedigrees, going to events and watching and meeting dogs, and listening to people with 1st hand information, I was pretty sure of what I would get, and I did.
--Mary
by tenmon on 14 October 2010 - 22:10
Mary, your particular breeding might have been the exception, but that's not what I'm saying. Please read and comphrend. You can plan, buy the best OFA's dogs, put them together and still get the specimens I spoke of. Nothing is guaranteed since we are talking about a set genetic package. You can always get a throw back! This individual can do the opposite of you in her breeding program concerning OFA dogs (maybe she can't afford it) and get all good hips/elbowed dogs or not.
Another thing, if you look at other threads on the site, you will see some of the most famous dogs being bred from backyard breeders. Just research the bloodlines....wayback!
Some individuals talked about getting a better stud since the female was bred well. Interviews with some of the better breeders also say that a good male is good, but the female is the one that has more of an impact. Check Koos Hassings...tiekerhook.
Cheers.
Another thing, if you look at other threads on the site, you will see some of the most famous dogs being bred from backyard breeders. Just research the bloodlines....wayback!
Some individuals talked about getting a better stud since the female was bred well. Interviews with some of the better breeders also say that a good male is good, but the female is the one that has more of an impact. Check Koos Hassings...tiekerhook.
Cheers.
by Gemini on 14 October 2010 - 22:10
Tenmon, I purchased my dog from a back yard breeder and am very happy. The dam is from show pedigree so most dogs ofa'd. But the sire (that i love) but not alot of health certified dogs on his side. As a dog owner I have to be concerned with the un-knows. Is my dog more proned to problems I dont know and that is the issue with most posters.
Reggie
Reggie
by OGBS on 14 October 2010 - 22:10
Tenmon wrote, "Every breeding is a shot in the dark!"
Really???
If that were so then how did we end up with specific breeds?
Truly an ignorant statement.
Really???
If that were so then how did we end up with specific breeds?
Truly an ignorant statement.
by tenmon on 14 October 2010 - 23:10
We are all concern about the unknowns. These are the risk of breeding. Nobody can guaranteee what the final outcome will be. Just like you Gemini, I have had my share of wonderful GSD from backyard breeders with no problems, temperament and structural wise. And I have had some disappointments from dogs bred from two titled, mouthwatering pedigreed dogs. Hip problems! Can't blame the sire and dam. This was the draw of the hand.
Ignorant...OGBS? If you think that you can control the lining up of the genes when the breeding is done, then you are being delusional. Only God can do this.
Specific breeds? Some one, just like this individual making the post, had a plan and a vision as to what they wanted to create. They do not know what the outcome would be but they experimented. When the clay was moulded into the form/shape that the visionary wanted, any deviation was bred out, or try to breed out. But once the genetic package was set with all the various good and bad genes, we continue to manipulate the package. But no matter what, you will get some throwbacks. It is like a jar of jelly beans with different colours. You are breeding to keep one colour out but the package is still the jar. You never know.
It is quite obvious you do not know much about genetics and breeding. All specific breeds can breed throw backs. This site has a post on dwarfism which you should checkout just to prove a point. What about that OGBS?
Ignorant...OGBS? If you think that you can control the lining up of the genes when the breeding is done, then you are being delusional. Only God can do this.
Specific breeds? Some one, just like this individual making the post, had a plan and a vision as to what they wanted to create. They do not know what the outcome would be but they experimented. When the clay was moulded into the form/shape that the visionary wanted, any deviation was bred out, or try to breed out. But once the genetic package was set with all the various good and bad genes, we continue to manipulate the package. But no matter what, you will get some throwbacks. It is like a jar of jelly beans with different colours. You are breeding to keep one colour out but the package is still the jar. You never know.
It is quite obvious you do not know much about genetics and breeding. All specific breeds can breed throw backs. This site has a post on dwarfism which you should checkout just to prove a point. What about that OGBS?
by starrchar on 14 October 2010 - 23:10
I still stand firm on the fact that breeding without getting the hips and elbows checked is irrresponsible.
Tenmon, What if these dogs the OP is breeding are dysplastic? Would you still claim the OP did nothing wrong? I can't imagine you would, but since she never had the hips and elbows checked as far as we know, she could very well be breeding dysplastic dogs.
I don't think you can compare race horses with dogs. With race horses, they look at one thing...can the horse run? And let's not even talk about the LARGE number of horses that don't make it and what happens to them.
Tenmon, What if these dogs the OP is breeding are dysplastic? Would you still claim the OP did nothing wrong? I can't imagine you would, but since she never had the hips and elbows checked as far as we know, she could very well be breeding dysplastic dogs.
I don't think you can compare race horses with dogs. With race horses, they look at one thing...can the horse run? And let's not even talk about the LARGE number of horses that don't make it and what happens to them.
by Gustav on 15 October 2010 - 00:10
Tenmon,
I see nothing in your posts that I would consider in error. Sure, research, knowledge, understanding of genetics can help, but at the end of the day with this breed it is still a crapshoot to a large degree. The variables you bring up of skipped generation, genetic saturation, hidden recessives, and other elements will always complicate reproduction for this breed. Then you have the elitest that don't realize that their OFA Excellent dog with two siblings that are moderate or worse is a higher liability than the Fair dog with siblings that are all fair or better. (Of course many of these breeders don't have a clue about the siblings)....but they will pound somebody quick because their dog is OFA Excellent. They know just enough to not recognize what you are saying....Oh Welll...its all good as the young folks say!
I see nothing in your posts that I would consider in error. Sure, research, knowledge, understanding of genetics can help, but at the end of the day with this breed it is still a crapshoot to a large degree. The variables you bring up of skipped generation, genetic saturation, hidden recessives, and other elements will always complicate reproduction for this breed. Then you have the elitest that don't realize that their OFA Excellent dog with two siblings that are moderate or worse is a higher liability than the Fair dog with siblings that are all fair or better. (Of course many of these breeders don't have a clue about the siblings)....but they will pound somebody quick because their dog is OFA Excellent. They know just enough to not recognize what you are saying....Oh Welll...its all good as the young folks say!
by tenmon on 15 October 2010 - 00:10
Good points Starrchar. I'm not saying that she should not have gotten the dogs OFA'd. I would say the same. But, giving her the benefit of the doubt that her resources did not allow this( just an assumption), then I don't have a problem if that's what she wanted to do. We can't stop that. But still that does not say they have a hip/elbow problem either and the pups can all come out being fantastic schutzhund 3 dogs, etc..
The point I'm trying to make is that when pairing two individuals, be it dogs, cats, humans, etc. you never know what you will get. Remember the movie..."like a box of chocolates." (just a bit of humor here!) I really wish there was a way to select. Then there would be no guess work and everyone would be buying pups from them only. But we just can't.
The point I'm trying to make is that when pairing two individuals, be it dogs, cats, humans, etc. you never know what you will get. Remember the movie..."like a box of chocolates." (just a bit of humor here!) I really wish there was a way to select. Then there would be no guess work and everyone would be buying pups from them only. But we just can't.
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