I'm a backyard breeder........... - Page 10

 Charlie, you just wasted a whole bunch of precious time typing that. We can find that anywhere. Doesn't answer my question, but it's a great distraction from it nonetheless. It's fine; nevermind. Don't worry about my question.

I see by your posts that you're another one that's not much for detail in terms of reading posts. You kind of skim, pick out certain phrases and words, and spin them into something else. At least you can sort of spell and you use punctuation. For that, I thank you. I'll argue with you any day! Your posts don't take nearly as much effort to get through. 

Where you pulled this out of, I cannot fathom: Until there is a law that constrans you, that is your right to do, regardless what anyone here may think. The market does a pretty good job of policing itself and in order to charge top dollar, you may well have to do all the things that are required of a breeder of $2K puppies. At such price, any bad breeding policies will become known quickly.

Are you somehow getting the idea that I asked you for breeding advice? You're most certainly mistaken. Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about (if you're directing that at me)? If you're not directing that at me,  nevermind. 

Jenni78:  It took no time as the information is available on the web.  Let's look at your original question from page 2 and see where's the spin:  "Charlie, what qualifies as a 'Marko Cellerand" male? I mean, what generation? I mean, I have a Bernd Lierberg (linebred no less, LOL) male I don't breed. Am I wasting him?"  and on page 3 you restate:   Charlie, you didn't answer my question as to what qualifies a dog as, for example, a "Marko Cellerand male"?

To be sure, I thought that you were kidding with such a question, but I believe that the question of what qualifies as a  Marko vom Cellerland male has been answered. However, in the event it hasn't been to your satisfaction, and for the benefit of others who don't know, I'll sum it up.  A bloodline can be defined as a family of dogs that breed true for certain traits that set as a "standard". This begins with with breed type, including temperament, overall proportions, balance, soundness and health.   Among GSD's, Bloodlines are based on an individual stud dog (or brood bitch, although I don't believe that brood-bitch bloodlines are common on the GSD register, I do believe that it is worthwhile), usually a prominent dog that genetically throws such quality, that a high percentage of its offspring all breed true for this quality.  In other breeds, a breeder may be identified with a particular bloodline, but it does not appear to be the case with GSD's.  Consistency and quality are the hallmarks of the bloodline sire as his descendants are supposed to consistently reproduce the traits that are identified with said bloodline.

As to what generation, I don't believe that there would be enough selection on a bloodline like Marko vom Cellerland to make this a feasible criterai for elimination. Ideally, the least removed from the bloodline dog, the better, but one also has to look at the whole picture to ensure that there is a lot more possitive than negative in the traits that the dog carries.

Your question on whether or not you're wasting your dog, does sound like a "breeding advice" question.  Is he a signifficantly outstanding representative of his ancestors?  How comonplace are similarly bred dogs?  I don't always think that titles are such a defining factor.  There have been important WL studs (Mink, Crok to mention two) that did not foretell their breeding success on the trial field.  Once again, it would fall upon the owner of a brood-bitch to approach you if they think your dog is a suitable stud for their female.

beetree:  They'd be called "Maternal Bloodlines", but I don't believe that they're tracked amongst GSD's.

 Quote from Charlie319: Your question on whether or not you're wasting your dog, does sound like a "breeding advice" question. Is he a signifficantly outstanding representative of his ancestors? How comonplace are similarly bred dogs? I don't always think that titles are such a defining factor. There have been important WL studs (Mink, Crok to mention two) that did not foretell their breeding success on the trial field. Once again, it would fall upon the owner of a brood-bitch to approach you if they think your dog is a suitable stud for their female.

That was merely rhetorical and posted simply to try to illustrate my point and attempt to get you to expound on what you meant.  There was a healthy dose of sarcasm injected as well (Bernd, Horand...lol) Apparently, my tone is completely lost on you.  

I understand that my question, using Marko as an example, would of course be hypothetical, and expected it to be answered as such. 

Thanks anyway.

Onto Beetree's question....how ridiculous is it that such little consideration is given to the bitch???! Why do we NOT track these more carefully?

Jenni78: Just because your rhetorical question was not given the desired treatment, does not mean it was not identified as such. In fact, my use of Marko was also rhetorical/hypothetical, as I don't believe that there are any of his bloodline available. Innitially, I gave your question the short shrift because I assumed that you were either ignorant or just trying to make a pointless argument by being cute about such a point . This just prove the saying that "the secret to happiness lies in the management of expectations". I do believe that there is some attention given to maternal bloodlines by some breeders.

 Yes, I understood your example of Marko was rhetorical/hypothetical, and was curious as to "how close" "Dog X" (the label I used many times because I did understand that you were just using him as a "for instance") would have to be to be considered by you. If you don't have a concrete answer/theory, that's perfectly fine! There are people who say any further than 5 generations means nothing, while others say with certain bloodlines or even particular dogs,  7-8gens back can have some influence. I was just wondering if you had a set belief on the subject. Not a big deal, as I've said several times. Thanks anyway. 

Yes, some breeders pay careful attention to maternal lines. I am one of them, but I am appalled at the lack of attention most pay to what I consider at least 50% of the equation. 

Jenni78: Let me rehash my reply to you in more digestible terms.... Since we're talking about a "bloodline" when speaking of a "Marko-dog", and they are not easy to find, if at all, the issue your question raised becomes moot. It is specifically the dearth of said bloodlines that makes them worthy of perpetuating. I stated to you that: "Bloodlines are based on an individual stud dog (or brood bitch, although I don't believe that brood-bitch bloodlines are common on the GSD register, I do believe that it is worthwhile), usually a prominent dog that genetically throws such quality, that a high percentage of its offspring all breed true for this quality". Bloodline dogs have descendants (not just sons & grandsons) that exhibit the qualities (desired and undesired) of the bloodline for many generations. Case in point, I have a Frei von der Gugge SL pup (under 1 year of age) who exhibits a lot of Frei-lines traits and is an excellent SchH prospect already working on the sleeve. If we were talking of a similar Canto or Quanto dog, he would not be breed worthy due to the easy availability of said bloodlines in comparison with a "Marko". In other words, IMPO, it is not just the quality issue that makes a dog breedable, but the qualities that it brings to the table (and how readily available are said set of traits embodied in the bloodline), both in conformation and temperament, to ensure that the breed remains true to its origins. Otherwise, we end up with the "nice, nicer, nicest" syndrome that affects many SL dogs taking hold on other traits. IMPO, both parents contribute to the genetic makeup, but the dam provides the behavioral building blocks during those first 8-16 weeks of life and should receive a lot of attention in the planning stages of any breeding program.

Backyard breeders should not be tolerated in this breed (or any!).

I'm shocked and disturbed at some of the lenient attitudes of supposed breed enthusiasts here in this thread. To protect our breeds interests, we must demand a little more from people then just breeding "registered dog" to "registered dog".  To condone such actions is abhorrable, IMO.

 Quote: I'm shocked and disturbed at some of the lenient attitudes of supposed breed enthusiasts here in this thread. To protect our breeds interests, we must demand a little more from people then just breeding "registered dog" to "registered dog". To condone such actions is abhorrable, IMO.

I am going right out and breeding a dog in my backyard. How dare you. HA HA. However, if I were to build a cool professional looking building, can I breed there with my registered dogs ? I know enough breeders to know that some pretty damn nice dogs are getting it on in the backyard.

BYB is a pejorative term used by breeding operators to smear smaller, non-industrial (albeit not always well researched) competitors. If you notice, those who supported the OP, generally supported a well thought out plan on the breedings, the typical health checks (including radiographs of hips & elbows)and a reasonable administration of the Dam. A good BYB is no different than any other, except in scale. Just how committed to objectives can you be if you own,train, trial and show 10 or more dogs. And on top of that you have to breed, care and do foundation work for the litters... Just like there are small (BYB) breeders who take their few litters very seriously, there are substantial breeding operations that just crank out 6 or more litters every year.

The term BYB, in the minds of most dog people, is synonomous with those who breed just because they can, without any significant thought involved or care taken.  They are NOT respected in the dog world in general. There are also many people who are very knowledagble and experienced, who breed a litter every so often and take all the careful measures mentioned above and although the actual breeding may take place in the backyard I would NOT call them BYBs. JMO  Most everyone here knows the OP is the typical BYB, although there are worse out there.