Thoughts on this czech breeding - Page 1

The father is a working dual-purpose k9 who is a very dominant and hard dog with high working drives and social at the same time. Huge bone structure with a massive powerful head. The dam of the litter has extreme drives and is very civil. Everything she does is full speed. She's a tall strong female with great structure. This pedigree seems like it will produce great working dogs and I was thinking of getting a pup from this litter.  Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Here is the link to the pups Pedigree:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=675671&modir=597999

 I like it. I love the linebreeding on Kaso, and I really like Tom. I had a Tom grandson who was purchased for dual purpose PSD work, and my other male (my favorite dog ever) goes back to Kaso and other K litter dogs. 

I like it also.  No wonder the Sire is a working K9, he has some of my favorite dogs in his pedigree, namely Nick and Cordon.  The females pedigree is really nice also.  Good luck if you get a puppy.

Jim

 I forgot to mention Nick; meant to say that sounded like a great combo- Nick, Tom, etc. 

I do not like this breeding. Not yet anyway.
 First little formality; the Lowen Hartzen is not Czech kennel and father is Slovak. Thus this is not a "Czech" breeding.
Hip record on Sire and Dam (too young) and her dam are missing and her dam Carin z Perstatskeho mlyna has "B" hips which is in OFA borderline to at best fair.  Then we have there Klara at least 3 or more(?) x and Grisa at least 1x which by itself is not terminal since we have also Titus there  but in combination with missing HD record on pedigree provided I would not be interested in this breeding.
Workability is high, since  we have some heavy hitters there. But we must see total picture.
  If the Dam Amba will have good hips and her liter mates too and her mother's HD record is completed and we look at her liter mates  and if the father's HD record is completed and there I would go 3 generations back and study liter mates and progeny and see what HD record is there since there is the HD problem in earlier generations then we may have something better.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

 Well, I completely agree...however I didn't think he was asking about the BREEDING as much as the PEDIGREE, based on what he said here: This pedigree seems like it will produce great working dogs and I was thinking of getting a pup from this litter. Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

My comments didn't touch on anything but names on paper, since I know nothing of the sire and dam and their hip/elbow stats, titles, breed surveys, etc. From what he said, it sounded like he knew a great deal about both sire and dam personally, so I gave benefit of the doubt and shut my mouth.

Hans, what do you mean about Klara 3x...was Klara a bad hip producer? I'm confused by what you meant.

Klara z Pohranicni straze: Great producer of hard serious dogs ( Gero z Blatenskeho zamku) and for that reason she was used many time and her progeny was used many times. She was an excellent dog!!! The negative is that she also produced high number of bad hips and that production was quite stubborn down the line for many generations. 
The good news is that she is often even 8 generations back. Thus her influence may:
1. be still pronounced
2. or be diminishing 
3. or is insignificant (Just about gone) in comparison to other dogs on the pedigree. 
If it is 1. then you must  either not breed this dog or breed the line with super hip line.
if it is 2. . then you must be careful that you do not line breed on her or other such dog like Grischa vd Schwartzen Milan, which is what we see here (Such linebreeding) , which would have similar bad hips reputation.
If it is 3. We even can line breed on her if the father and mother are both  3 and she is at least 5 generations back.  
I am not a purist and I do not advice against breeding any Klara what so ever since that would eliminate some valuable traits and also that would eliminate high percentage of all Czech dogs thus narrowing down significantly genetic pool.  But we must keep in mind my points above. 
When you breed you need to look at any bad traits as a card in the deck of cards( dog's Pedigree). One deck for the mother and one for the father. When you breed 2 dogs you are picking a card  from the top of each parent's deck of   card(s). If they match in kind than you will produce or strengthen this problem (or virtue). Thus  you need to stack the cards in your favor and try to keep the bad cards  on the bottom of the deck. Remember all the dogs have common ancestors so they all have  these cards in common, but some of them have them on the bottom of the deck and some may have them closer to the top and thus the probability of the problem is the same. Keep in mind that even wolf will produce bad hips if bred in captivity without benefit of mother nature eliminating precursors of bad hips (cards in the deck working itself to the top of the deck) for 3 or more generations.  
It is also important to look at the parent's littermates and progeny   of the dog's in at least last 3 generations. That will give you good picture of the genotype of the dogs which you  are planning to mate.
If you are interested in this get this book:)):
http://www.alpinek9.com/CanineDysplasiaFredLanting.html
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Ok the next logical question is, how do you find out the good and bad traits of dogs that you see in a pedigree?  Doing a google search and you pretty much if not always get the good traits but not that bad traits.

I appreciate the Lanting book and yes,  people breeding dogs need to read this. 

The unwritten part is most people refuse to take advice on how to breed away from hip dysplasia.   And how do we do that?
My one disagreement with Hans is with Klara.  Klara lines produce HD depending on who else is in the pedigree.
I guess this really isn't a disagreement but more of a specific inspection of why the HD occurs.  Klara crosses as Hans points out, can work well.  It all involves what else she is combined with and then you play the odds. 

I was not able to pull up the link to see this breeding and I too would ask if a 3x of anything is worth it.  One has to know ALL the genetic issues here.  Having done my share of linebreeding, homework is more than a pedigree search.  Hans is giving good FREE advice here, listen to the "parent's littermates and progeny".   

My favorite story, client wants to buy female in top Czech Nationals ( years ago ok?) Littermates showed me she was the only dog in her litter with passing hips. 

Good luck!
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com

 

 

Ace952
Yes that is the problem. You need to keep file, ask people who are willing to talk and say the truth and then verify. PDB is good tool but is often corrupted. Correct mistakes here when you see them. Always make sure that your info is the best available. Learn to compromise. See total dog! Learn from problems in your breedings and go back to figure out where they came from. Make  a note of it.  Or you need to know the dogs yourself. It is not easy. But nobody learned  falls from the sky.
:) Take care. Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com