Doom Nuggets: The Cereal Killer - Page 1

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Dogs are NOT WOLVES. We have selectively altered their structure and changed everything about their bodies. The teeth and jaws especially have changed. Here is a wolf skull compared to that of a GSD.

Also, human discovered how to use fire and how to grow crops for food many millenia ago. Dogs have adapted to eating cooked food and vegetables since then. They are no longer specifically adapted to eating raw bones and meat. And they never were obligate carnivores the way cats are.  In her books, famous dog author and trainer Barbara Woodhouse talks about how dogs allowed the free run of her garden selectively eat fruit, leaves and vegetables. She says dogs that are sick will deliberately pick certain plants to help cure their illnesses.


German Shepherd skull


Gray wolf skull

The power of the bite comes from the muscles attached to the jaws, especially the upper jaw. Notice that the wolf's teeth are larger and more closely spaced. The canines are much longer and have a much longer root. The bone above the last carnassil is very thick and heavy, helping the wolf to crack bones open to get at the marrow. The zygomatic arch (bony bar below the eye is much larger, as is the sagittal crest on top of the head. Both of these spots are important areas for muscle attachment. The wolf skull is also shorter and broader than the GSDs, concentrating the biting power in a more compact area.

Oh yes, commercial dog food has only been around about 50 years or so. Before then, dogs got along just fine eating table scraps from their owner's table, maybe with the odd bit of raw meat or juicy bone thrown in if their owners were wealthy enough!

yes, we have selectively altered their appearances, but the internal workings of dogs have not changed.  and actually those skulls look fairly similar....the teeth are pointy and sharp in both skulls.  they are teeth made for shearing through meat.  there are no flat teeth for eating plants or kibble.  

also, it would be more beneficial to read studies by David Mech and Robert Wayne (who have dedicated years to research), rather than read books by an author and trainer (who is also in it for profit).

bite power isn't the main issue here.  there are many species of carnivores, all with different 'bite power'.  although a wolf has a greater 'bite power' than a gsd, this doesn't mean the wolves main concern is cracking weight bearing bones open for their marrow.  again, it would be beneficial to read Dr. Mech's studies on the wolf diet.  you can also contact one of the many wolf sanctuaries in the country (there is one in jackson nj) and find out what and how they eat.

but for arguments on wether you think the dog is related or unrelated to the wolf, please take that up with the Smithsonian Institute and the American Society of Mammalogists.  since they classified these animals (with the help of Dr. Wayne's DNA studies), they would have more background information on this subject than i would.

Dogs are considered a sub-species of the wolf, Canis lupus. HOWEVER, they are NOT wolves and have not been wolves for thousands of years.

Oh, and guess what diet is fed to most captive wolves?

www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

The average life expectancy of wolves in the wild is considerably lower than that of captive wolves, and disease, parasitism, and malnutrition are important factors in the mortality of wild populations.7-9 Captive wolves live longest and are healthiest when fed — guess what? — commercial dog food! This is the recommendation of the leading specialists in captive wolf husbandry and medicine, and it is largely the result of evidence that the previous practice of feeding raw meat based diets to captive wolves led to poorer quality nutrition and health than the current practices. Certainly, raw meat and bones are often used as enrichment items or bait for husbandry purposes, but always with an awareness of the risks they pose, and never as the primary diet.

BARF proponents persistently confound ingredients with nutrients. They imagine that because wild canids get their nutrients from raw whole carcasses that this must be the only appropriate source of nutrition for all canids, including domestic dogs despite the fact they have been eating our cooked leftovers for tens of thousands of years. This is contradicted, however, by extensive research in canine nutrition and by the generations of dogs who have lived long, healthy lives eating commercial pet foods.


As I said above, dogs are obviously NOT herbivores. Yes, you just have to look at the teeth to see that. However, unlike cats they are not obligate carnivores either:

Functionally, dogs are omnivores or facultative carnivores, not obligate carnivores, and they are well-suited to an omnivorous diet regardless of their taxonomic classification or ancestry.

Domestic dogs did branch off from a wolf ancestor, and current DNA evidence suggests this occurred some 100,000-135,000 years ago.2,3 Though the data are unclear as to what morphologic or ecological changes might have occurred following this initial divergence, and while it is likely that there was much ongoing genetic exchange between dogs and wolves even after they diverged, it is still the case that dogs have not been wolves for a very long time. However, a distinct phenotypic divergence of dogs and wolves followed the development of more sedentary agricultural habits by many human groups some 10-15,000 years ago, which placed new selection pressures on our canines companions.31 Since then numerous anatomic and behavioral changes that have occurred first as a result of living with humans and sharing our food. And even more dramatic changes have been wrought on dogs in the last about 3000 years as a consequence of intensive selective breeding. Domestic dogs exhibit many features of neoteny, the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood. They have smaller and less robust skulls and dentition, and numerous features of their skeleton, GI tract, and other anatomic structures are significantly different from wolves. 4-6
 

Bite power is not an issue here...

REALLY? Can you imagine a chihuahua or other toy breed pulling down prey in the wild?

Many domestic dogs fracture teeth chewing on raw, meaty bones. I know someone who has shelled out over $3,000 in dentistry fees to have damaged teeth removed from her corgi, which was allowed to chew on raw bones.

Some of the work I did for my biology degree focussed on the study of bones. I have also worked for a veterinarian, and both my training and experience at the vet's makes me agree with the article I linked to above. Dogs can and do die from eating raw meaty bones. Bowel obstructions, puncture of the bowel, internal parasites and bacteria all take their toll.

The BARF diet is based on junk science. That said, SOME commercial dog foods are nutritionally incomplete or contain harmful substances. There is a great need for scientific studies to be done on pet nutrition...studies that are NOT funded by the pet food companies, that is!...to determine what is the best way of feeding our pets for them to live long, healthy lives.

the captive wolves that are in this area are fed a raw diet, and whole carcass road kill when available.  you can contact howling acres wolf sanctuary in jackson, nj.  can you please site which locations of captive wolves you are referring to that are fed dog food?

the life expectancy of wild wolves is also lowered by non-nutritional diseases, as well as injury (ie. getting kicked in the head by a large hoofed ungulate).

can you also please cite which leading specialists in captive wolf husbandry and medicine you are referring to?

please also cite where you copy and pasted the last two paragraphs from.

on a side note, you can also look up, internationally known expert in animal nutrition, Dr. Richard Patton, who has stated that feeding 1 meal of dog food per day reduces your dogs lifespan by 4 years.

wether people decide to feed veggies, fruits, supplements, etc. in addition to a raw diet is not my concern at the moment.  my argument is that dogs, which are carnivores, should be fed a diet based on meat, and the only way to obtain all the nutrients from meat, is to eat it raw.  

then when people see with their own eyes the improvements in their dogs, and reduced medical problems and vet bills, they become believers and advocates.  there are thousands of people who have stepped outside the box, thought for themselves, and successfully switched their dogs (and cats) to raw feeding, and have reaped the many benefits.  you don't have to take my word for it...you can ask them all one by one.  there are several yahoo groups dedicated to this subject, as well as many vets that are starting to see the truth.

chef boyardee makes balanced meals with daily servings of vegetables, and it's all in a can....that doesn't mean i'm going to eat it daily for the rest of my life.  in fact, i would probably end up with diabetes or cancer, aside from all that acne.  mmm, mmm good.

aside from all this, the article you posted was written by a 2001 graduate, and as we all know, vet schools are funded by pet food companies, their books are provided by pet food companies, and they are also taught a "whole semester" of nutrition by the same pet food companies.  it's a big monopoly you see.  

in any case, 9 years may possibly be enough to conduct an unbiased study on dog nutrition, raw vs. cooked vs. dog food, but such a study has never been funded or done.  that being said, i would rather use common sense, and gather information from someone who has been doing independent research since 1958.

it's people like you who discourage raw feeding, and the only ones that suffer are the dogs with allergies, skin problems, ear infections, hypothyroidism, periodontal disease, renal failure, cancer, i can keep going, etc.

uvw, the references are all given at the bottom of the article I linked to. Please have a look: I'd copy and paste, but kennel chores are calling!

I'm not sure which two paragraphs you are referring to, whether from my last post or second last. All quoted material is from the link I provided. The last two paragraphs above are my own words.

the 'barf' diet is outdated...which lets me know about how long ago you researched this subject.

people also need to know which bones to feed, and which bones not to feed...again, common sense and experience.  the majority of dogs, even with human error in feeding, do not suffer any medical problems.  those who have done their research know not to feed weight bearing bones because of their density.  they also know to watch and learn as to what kind of an eater their particular dog is...to adjust the diet and avoid future problems.

kids drown in pools every year; that doesn't mean we should make swimming illegal, but we should educate people about it.

again, just more scare tactics from the pet industry.

and a chihuahua doesn't need to take down a moose, but it can take out a much smaller pray animal; rat, mouse, small bird. the point is, the chihuahua and the german shepherd have the exact same internal workings...same digestive tract, need for same nutrients, etc.

it's people like you who discourage raw feeding, and the only ones that suffer are the dogs with allergies, skin problems, ear infections, hypothyroidism, periodontal disease, renal failure, cancer

You have no proof of this. As for vets,  I have made an effort to educate my vet about what crap the foods he pushes are, such as Science Diet which is mainly made from corn and other grains; but he will not listen, so I know the problems with the veterinary profession.

The pet food industry is not to blame for my views. I arrived at them on my own, through my own experience and research. Yes, my 'research' may be mostly anecdotal, such as the dog I saw spend 10 days in the vet clinic while a large chunk of bone worked its way through its bowels with the help of megadoses of laxitive, or our cat, which nearly died from peritonitis as a result of catching its dinner on the wing, and having a bird bone puncture its bowel. Part of it comes from the very miserable week I spent with non-stop diarrhea as a result of picking up a bacterial infection from undercooked chicken.

It is hard to balance raw diets. Our osteology lab at the university contained the skeleton of an ocelot, which had been fed mainly raw hamburger. All of the leg bones were seriously deformed from rickets.

I have read a great deal about veterinary medicine, as I wanted to be a vet. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I do remember the story of the seal trainer that insisted on feeding her seals whole, fresh, raw fish. She was always having to deworm them to get rid of parasites. One day, she decided to double up on the medicine she used for this, and almost killed them.

After that, she listened to the resident veterinarian, who told her that freezing the fish would kill most of the parasites, and there were better, more modern worm medicines on the market that would not have such serious toxic effects if she accidentally gave them too much.

As dogs and cats are not natural fish eaters, they don't stand as much risk from fish parasites as seals do, but other types of raw meats can contain dangerous parasites.

I also question the safety of chicken bones. When I was a kid, every pet owner knew that you never ever fed raw chicken to your pet, as the bones were hollow inside, and could easily puncture the gut. No one has explained to me adequately how and why raw chicken suddenly became 'safe' to feed!

I hope this has given you something to think about, although I know I stand little chance of changing your views on this subject.

no, there is no chance of changing my views because i have the success of my 4 dogs as well as dozens of other dogs under my belt (anecdotal, right?), some of which had severe medical problems that seemed to have gone away within several weeks. i can give you my vet records as proof.  and i'm sure there are plenty of people who would give you their vet records as well.  

and yes, the pet industry is to blame for some of your views because they are the tiny voice in the back of everyone's head that needs to be squashed.

as for the dog passing a big chunk of bone, people need to be informed as to which bones are safe to feed and which are not.

as for the diarrhea from bacteria, many times supposed bacteria from food is blamed for other problems, so without a culture, i can't comment.  i can tell you that a vet tried to rip me a new one by telling me my dog had a salmonella infection, but when the culture came back as a regular ol' skin bacteria, she was the one that was sore in the end.

as for the hamburger fed cat, that is attributed to human error.  because an informed person would know that organs and bones are just as important to feed as meat.  and it's not very difficult to balance a raw diet.  the "balanced" diet is another misconception that the pet food industry uses as a scare tactic.

as for the seal and the fish, again, an informed person would know (at least for dogs and cats) which fish can carry parasites, and which are safer...as well as freezing for a certain period of time to kill the parasite should it exist.  it comes from research, and laziness is where you start getting into trouble.   

and finally about chicken bones, the biggest myth of them all.  raw bones are digestible, cooked are not.  and i can post a pic of a dehydrated duck bone that was given to my dog by someone without permission, which i had to try and remove from his butt.  i can also post an xray (if i can find it) of my dogs stomach approx 12 hours after eating bone in chicken...there were only a few small dots shown on the xray.  the chicken we eat is processed at about 7-8 weeks, the bones are still soft (unlike the bones of laying hens, etc.).  larger dogs can easily consume the leg bones, while small dogs may or may not be able to.  dogs do not chew.  they crush the bone WITHIN the meat until it fits down their throat, and then they swallow.  when the bone is still in the meat, it doesn't scrape, poke, or puncture anything.

the benefits faaar outweigh the risks.  and most of the risks can be eliminated just by doing research and paying attention.