Heritability of Temperment - Page 1

Hi All --

I've had a very hard time researching genetics of TEMPERMENT. Color genetics seem to be fairly well understood, at least an understanding of  things like "dilute gene" (i.e, blues, livers) are recessive in GSD

Nowhere have I been able to locate any reasonable information on "Dominant" or "Recessive" TEMPERMENT TRAITS.

Or anything like, "HIGHLY ACTIVE" (not "drive", but "tendency to be extremely mobile") stud x "RELAXED" (again, not "drive" but "tending to be more sedentary") female; of 8 pups  ____ were "HIGHLY active, ___ were "VERY relaxed" and ___ were someplace in between?

Trying to be simplistic here, for temperment is very complex, I so very hugely do understand this. 

I do need to state my interest is NOT about the "Weak Nerve Issue" -- I've personally observed that "weak nerve" is [nearly] impossible to "weed out" ... by which I mean, if a bitch with significantly weak nerve just of SIBLINGS will always throw one or 2 pups our of 8 that's unfit to register, regardless of the stud. Thank god it wasn't my bitch! Pretty sure many others agree on this...   

My interest is in Temperment Traits OUTSIDE of "w.n.", such things as civil protection, herding instinct, hardness, social (pack-family) drive, and (yes, really) activity level.

Reason I ask is my interest in GSD is entirely about the dog's CAPABILITIES to do work.  I don't care if they're purple or even bald all over -- only if their head's screwed on right ;-)

I'm considering sending a question box sheet to the owner's on my litter record's to get (some, at least) numbers just for my own use (I've only 13 years with GSD, few litters) 
 
Has anyone else done similar? Can anyone point me to any unbiased studies on this subject? 

THANKS in Advance

Bobby

Interesting question for sure.  I've seen thinks like "produces sociability in his pups" and definately hear herding instinct as a heritable trait.  I hope this thread gets some feedback and comments.  I've got a DDR line chart with the temperament ratings from 0 to 7 along with conformation, courage, etc. shown with each dog.   It's too sparse to make any theories about, it's only popular males and none of the females to make any sort of guesses where the numbers come from.  There seem to be lots of 6 and 7s (relaxed, good natured) with periodic 3's popping up (suspicious) in most of the lines.   Some of those 3s went on to produce generations of 6 & 7 themselves.   Not much to go on.

Heather

Thanks Heather!

Where'd you get the "temperment chart" thing? Is there a URL for it? My dogs have many DDR in their back lines...

I too hope we get some good response from this thread...  I know it's just HUMAN nature for some of us to favor one "color" over another...

For reasons I'm not sure of, it does seem that european GSD kennels etc (like, when I've read articles from, and such) seem to place priority first on a dogs ABILITIES and STRUCTURE, with the dog's coloring something of an "aside" so I'm kind of puzzled how color has taken such significance for so many?

Mr. VonStephanitz barely mentions it in his book...
 
I'd love to see that temperment chart thing. How can I find one?

Thanks again

Bobby

PS -- I too have seen VERY good individual pups come of lines with some "w.n." I've just not (personally) observed those bitch to produce a litter WITHOUT one or 2 unacceptable pup

Great subject, my very favorite to be exact.  But when we persist to argue about the simple genetics of color heritability, where this leads, I don't want to go.

I will say now, that the great majority of "experts" in the field that study behavior genetics for a living, are for the most part clueless.  They're for the most part reduced to collecting survey data, of which respondants find subjective, and the collection of which is prone to further misinterpretation toward the purpose of the study involved.  I'm not saying don't do that, because any information is better than no information at all.  It will help you gain a more intuitive start.  If I shared what I've learned and the dog related studies I've personally conducted with my findings, it would no doubt end up on some twerps website or published in a periodical with no credit to myself.

First step however, is that you're going to want to define exact phenotypes in the most basic and consistent terms.  "Weak nerves" means a lot of different things to everyone.  Another is, many people don't have a clear grasp of what behaviors are truly heritable and which are not, and in what manner they manifest themselves, what environmental triggers activate their genetic potentials, or the genetic trade-offs between certain characteristics (and I'm not referring to breeder's compromises).

thanks darylehret --

DITTO on "not want to go" and "arguement about simple genetics" --

IMHO, "Temperment" shares status along with "Sound Structure" as the ONLY topic  ;-)   sure, I personally like to see deeper reddish shades in a (possible wrong term) luxury or longer coat -- but I'd rather a pink & purple dog with a brain than an idiot beauty queen...

The questionaire I was considering sending to folks who've gotten our pups was going to take this form [examples follow] with the respondent to write in the box numbers 1-->10, 1 for least resembles my dog and 10 = most resembles my dog

examples:

____  Can be aggressive toward other dogs when away from home
             comments _______________________________

____  Likes to chase a ball, stick or frisbee etc.
             comments _______________________________

____ Comes reliably when called

____ If pursuing something you disapprove of (a car, a rabbit) your dog returns immediately when called
           comments ________________________________

____ When misbehaving, my dog requires only a mild verbal correction (not raising my voice)
           comments ________________________________

____ My dog likes to chew on the mower's wheels when it's running
          JOKE: my eldest bitch still loves to do this  ;-)

[end of examples]

What I'm getting at, was to phrase the questions in a way that described a practical real life example of traits for the respondent to give a score and comment -- rather than use sometimes confusing "training terms" just simple examples from everyday life with dog...  For one, I sort of "intuit" that a dogs real temperment is seen in daily life...

Anybody want to jump in with some ideas?
Some examples, as dog living with family, of everyday interactions?
Where the respondent could easily just write a 1 -- 10 without needing to be an experienced handler (and avoiding "talking down" to those with such experience)

Any help would be gratefully appreciated

Thanks Again

Bobby

 

Don't know if this falls into the "weak nerve" thing or not, but quite a bit of research has been done on "shyness" and how hereditably that is.

One problem we all face: people who can't eval their own dogs...  to hear people talk, every dog out there is King Kong, that kinda hinders the data collection.

I wonder if you could come up with some simple tests and ask your puppy owners to video them? Then YOU could make the determination on what you see. Maybe take the dog through a TT and then add a few other things like rag work?

For one thing, I think a 1 to 10 scale is too much of a spread, and subject to too much personal interpretation (theirs, then yours with the collective data), especially when there isn't a precisely measurable distinction for units.  My advice would be to keep it short and simple (KISS) and use something more like poor/average/good/extreme.  If you can help the evaluator by providing definitive thresholds for each categoric level, then all the better.




"Herding behavior", as it was put, is more of a complex behavior composed of multiple components.

In the questions you proposed implementing, context would also play a very important determining factor. The "reward value" to the dog might be such that, the dog's completely nuts for the frisbee but not care for sticks, or, you get 20% recall normally - or 100% with a food bribe (and possibly be unwilling to leave your side thereafter)- or 0% recall with a kitty temptation involved.

Certain characteristics can change significantly with age. For example a seemingly "zero prey drive" dog might with 8 months maturity develop well above average drive for prey when all's said and done.

Think smaller elements, and then examine how they play out with each other. A complex combination of a half dozen units of behavior might compose an overall phenotype you're observing. With all the permutations than can then result in a given genotype and even various seeming "levels" of phenotype.

thanks again darlylehret --

Your input did alot to help clarify the matter. I can definitely see the value of going from 1 -- 10 down to just the 4. And also offering more clear examples (like the recall one)

Also the input on evaluating one's own pups!  DOH!!!  And I mean that in a GOOD way! 

It's just plain impossible for me, with deep fondness for the little critter's great-great-grandparents, parents, eager anticipation to see the first sparks of old "Rex" (or whomevers' now deceased and sooo missed) Wishful thinking, affection, clouds sound judgement -- I took our last litter to our kennel-buddies for him and his wife to eval .

the "shyness" trait is textbook-typical of "weak nerves" but sadly the only temperment trait with any well done research with regards to Heritability. This is good, necessary info for anyone even remotely considering dogs-making-babies! Gives clear insight what must be avoided no matter what.

I'm hoping here to find a less "wishful thinking", more tanigbly effective means of GOAL specific selection  ;-)

Thanks for everyone's help -- goes without saying this is probably a subject there couldn't be enough input. Hope it continues

Bobby

There are a lot more research available in behavior genetics other than 'shyness' studies.  Just keep looking, but perhaps change your search/querry methods.  Study also the "general" topics pertaining to the field, like what is defined as heritability, how is it measured, what's an ethogram, just how effective are quantitative approaches, was the research backed by a special interest group toward a certain aim, were there sufficient samples and of what type?  It might also be useful in the beginning, to narrow your research toward a specific characteristic, rather than so many.

Here's a couple examples you might find more useful...

Genetics of aggressive behaviour in Golden Retriever dogs

Heritability Estimates of Behaviors Associated With Hunting in Dogs