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by Sue B on 25 October 2009 - 22:10
Just got around to logging in and my, my you have all had a busy day havent you!!
Bazza, in answer to your question, at the time of the initial JRD requests I agreed to swab one of my older females. Her test came back clear, since then I have not tested any others. Rightly or wrongly I decided to wait until the Dogenes Test was Patented before considering to submit any further tests. At present I have an open mind on the subject and will continue to do so until such time as the scientific community offers substancial proof that the test is indeed totally and completely reliable. The way the tests are submitted at the moment I am not convinced it is reliable, since no vet or any other individual is involved other than the owner recieving a swab and the hope this owner has integrity and the swab contains the actual DNA of the dog it says it holds.
This is my view, it is my view to hold, I do not need or expect anyone else to agree or dissagree with it, I do not want, need nor require a debate on it, I certainly do not want an argument over it from anyone. I am simply replying to a question I was asked, end of.
Honestly and respectfully
Sue b
Bazza, in answer to your question, at the time of the initial JRD requests I agreed to swab one of my older females. Her test came back clear, since then I have not tested any others. Rightly or wrongly I decided to wait until the Dogenes Test was Patented before considering to submit any further tests. At present I have an open mind on the subject and will continue to do so until such time as the scientific community offers substancial proof that the test is indeed totally and completely reliable. The way the tests are submitted at the moment I am not convinced it is reliable, since no vet or any other individual is involved other than the owner recieving a swab and the hope this owner has integrity and the swab contains the actual DNA of the dog it says it holds.
This is my view, it is my view to hold, I do not need or expect anyone else to agree or dissagree with it, I do not want, need nor require a debate on it, I certainly do not want an argument over it from anyone. I am simply replying to a question I was asked, end of.
Honestly and respectfully
Sue b
by bazza on 26 October 2009 - 00:10
Thank you for your honest answer Sue b, i only wish more breeders would come forward and give their opinions as i am sure it would be of interest to many to see just what people think about the whole JRD situation.
by Videx on 26 October 2009 - 09:10
On a point of information: I understand the DNA sampling for the Kennel Clubs DNA profiling Scheme is the same as that for JRD.
Also Nikki Farley wrote the following: "I was asked by the Kennel Club to carry out a DNA test on one of my stud dogs as someone was querying the parentage on a puppy. I was sent almost the exact same testing kit as sent out by DogGenes and asked to swab my dog and return it."
While some people would prefer the DNA test swab to be done by a Vet, with the dog identified by a Tattoo/Microchip (which will be the case for ALL British veterinary Association (BVA) health screening tests from January 2010) The DOGenes JRD test swab, is clearly similar to the Kennel Clubs DNA profile test swab.
I would fully support ALL health screening tests for GSD here within the UK, to have a REQUIREMENT that they are done by a VET, and all dogs must have a Tattoo/Microchip, which must be checked by the Vet, and included in the paperwork.
It must be remembered that until January 2010, many GSD have had health screening tests, hips, elbows, haemophilia tests etc, without any Tattoo/Microchip, with the Vet only having the word of the owner that to dog being tested was indeed the dog on the paperwork for the test.
Also Nikki Farley wrote the following: "I was asked by the Kennel Club to carry out a DNA test on one of my stud dogs as someone was querying the parentage on a puppy. I was sent almost the exact same testing kit as sent out by DogGenes and asked to swab my dog and return it."
While some people would prefer the DNA test swab to be done by a Vet, with the dog identified by a Tattoo/Microchip (which will be the case for ALL British veterinary Association (BVA) health screening tests from January 2010) The DOGenes JRD test swab, is clearly similar to the Kennel Clubs DNA profile test swab.
I would fully support ALL health screening tests for GSD here within the UK, to have a REQUIREMENT that they are done by a VET, and all dogs must have a Tattoo/Microchip, which must be checked by the Vet, and included in the paperwork.
It must be remembered that until January 2010, many GSD have had health screening tests, hips, elbows, haemophilia tests etc, without any Tattoo/Microchip, with the Vet only having the word of the owner that to dog being tested was indeed the dog on the paperwork for the test.
by Trotters123 on 26 October 2009 - 09:10
This was exactly my point right at the start of this thread. If the test can be done here in Britain with identification guaranteed and done under sterile conditions then that is a brilliant step forward. So why keep pushing the Canadian route?
My God so all this arguements and shouting was really pointless. Especially if what is now being posted is true and we can do the test here!!!!!
As promised I spoke to my Vet this morning regarding the blood works. As he specified on SATURDAY! they can test for JRD but someone also asked about Epilepsy and MY Vet said Yes this can be done. Obviously the test is quite specific and he did mention that a differenct sample would be taken. So good news I think. However, as I do not just take one persons word for it, I will be asking a lot more people (in the know - medically) if this truly is the case.
I suppose that if you take a DNA sample one would be able to test for absolutely anything!
I think good news alround really.
Frank
My God so all this arguements and shouting was really pointless. Especially if what is now being posted is true and we can do the test here!!!!!
As promised I spoke to my Vet this morning regarding the blood works. As he specified on SATURDAY! they can test for JRD but someone also asked about Epilepsy and MY Vet said Yes this can be done. Obviously the test is quite specific and he did mention that a differenct sample would be taken. So good news I think. However, as I do not just take one persons word for it, I will be asking a lot more people (in the know - medically) if this truly is the case.
I suppose that if you take a DNA sample one would be able to test for absolutely anything!
I think good news alround really.
Frank
by Superdog on 26 October 2009 - 11:10
Good Morning Frank. YOU ask why the test cannot be done in uk. I run the GSD Information Group and one contact is a Professor who is in charge of all the teaching Vet Unis in Canada. He replied to my email whose article was printed in the breed Council Magazine. He stated although this existed it was NOT a KNOWN problem with GSDs. The Person doing the testing is working for a commercial firm and they have patented the test. This means that NO ONE here can copy it,. 4 prominent Professosors at the RVC, Beaumont, Bristol and Royal Dick have also agreed that this is not a problem with GSDs and also if it ever occurs it is due to something causing it. As it was said to me 1 animal does not cause A PANIC SITUATION. One person who you are discussing actually spoke to one of the Professor's concerned and all was explained to them. The KC genetacist also had no record of this problem in GSD's only in small breeds due to certain disfunctions. Concern must not lead to panic, and logically one must read and digest all facts with out causing panic. I was also told that if this is a disfunction they have found animals die whilst still in the nest and not months afterwards. I hope this helps to clear the air.
PLease NOTE DNA . The research update is posted giving fullexplanation in the SEIGER Sup out on 30th Oct. Explaining just what is going on and how it all connects up.
All problems which have been recorded in the GSD are included in this research which in turn is a European Research Group to which many of the Info Greoups researchers are participating. It is connected with HUMAN research as well.
It has a 10 million grant so they are not playing at it.........
So please do not try to ridicule what is done and thanks to all those who have participated you are leading the way.
If anyone in the UK wants to join contact me please.
Dorothy
PLease NOTE DNA . The research update is posted giving fullexplanation in the SEIGER Sup out on 30th Oct. Explaining just what is going on and how it all connects up.
All problems which have been recorded in the GSD are included in this research which in turn is a European Research Group to which many of the Info Greoups researchers are participating. It is connected with HUMAN research as well.
It has a 10 million grant so they are not playing at it.........
So please do not try to ridicule what is done and thanks to all those who have participated you are leading the way.
If anyone in the UK wants to join contact me please.
Dorothy
by Trotters123 on 26 October 2009 - 12:10
Superdog: That is absolutely brilliant. Thank you for that.
My own Vet did state to me on Saturday that although JRD is rife within other breeds ie a lot Utility breeds such as Standard Poodles, Apsos etc, he has not been made aware of it being previlant within GSDs. He was puzzled by the fact that certain people are 'making such a noise (as he put it) about this'
I do not take any potential disorder lightly and I do try to gather as much data as possible BEFORE making my final decision, but you must admit there has been a lot of contradicting statements being banded about. Which only go to confuse the issue.
If it is the case that JRD is within the GSD breed then surely it is only to the benefit of the breed something is done sooner rather than later in curbing the problem.
My whole point initially was that as people who had already used this test from Canada stated that they were unconvinced it was accurate due to the lack of sterile conditions AND a Non Vet was performing the tests. This, if true is very worrying.
My own Vet has again assured me that a test can be perform through blood work, which to me seem safer and much more reliable. Especially as MY Vet insist on ALL tests done on his patients be accompanied by their tattoo number or microchip number, this includes filling in the space available on the hip and elbow scoring documents.. I think this is a great thing and should be done as a matter of course without having to wait until it enforced in January 2010.
I look forward to any developments on this subject and hope that 'scaremongering' does NOT take hold but decent and rational discussions are opened up.
I wish the European Groups luck in their research.
Frank
My own Vet did state to me on Saturday that although JRD is rife within other breeds ie a lot Utility breeds such as Standard Poodles, Apsos etc, he has not been made aware of it being previlant within GSDs. He was puzzled by the fact that certain people are 'making such a noise (as he put it) about this'
I do not take any potential disorder lightly and I do try to gather as much data as possible BEFORE making my final decision, but you must admit there has been a lot of contradicting statements being banded about. Which only go to confuse the issue.
If it is the case that JRD is within the GSD breed then surely it is only to the benefit of the breed something is done sooner rather than later in curbing the problem.
My whole point initially was that as people who had already used this test from Canada stated that they were unconvinced it was accurate due to the lack of sterile conditions AND a Non Vet was performing the tests. This, if true is very worrying.
My own Vet has again assured me that a test can be perform through blood work, which to me seem safer and much more reliable. Especially as MY Vet insist on ALL tests done on his patients be accompanied by their tattoo number or microchip number, this includes filling in the space available on the hip and elbow scoring documents.. I think this is a great thing and should be done as a matter of course without having to wait until it enforced in January 2010.
I look forward to any developments on this subject and hope that 'scaremongering' does NOT take hold but decent and rational discussions are opened up.
I wish the European Groups luck in their research.
Frank
by Videx on 26 October 2009 - 12:10
FACT: JRD exists in GSD - CARRIERS have been found - from several differing pedigrees.
Breeders can choose whether to test or not test, that is their prerogative.
For anyone to claim fault with the JRD test, when they are ignorant of the test scientific details, and they are unable or have not checked it themselves "scientifically" are fundamentally wrong.
The JRD DNA test has been "patented" LINK in my above post
The JRD DNA test has been "published" LINK in my above post
Far too many of you behave like JJ (Graham Martin of Graychelsea GSD) in that "if you don't know the facts - then make some up" - if any of you doubt this statement - simply ask JJ to provide PROOF of ALL his allegations he has made in his "pm" to you. Then sit back and wait. IF he responds "EVALUATE HIS REPLY"
Particularly ask him to NAME the eight females he alleges DIED after being mated to Rocky. Surely he must know who they are especially with him being so specific with their number. Their names should be posted on this thread. Ha Ha Ha - impossible. Now there is a real challenge, that JJ and bazza cannot accept.
Breeders can choose whether to test or not test, that is their prerogative.
For anyone to claim fault with the JRD test, when they are ignorant of the test scientific details, and they are unable or have not checked it themselves "scientifically" are fundamentally wrong.
The JRD DNA test has been "patented" LINK in my above post
The JRD DNA test has been "published" LINK in my above post
Far too many of you behave like JJ (Graham Martin of Graychelsea GSD) in that "if you don't know the facts - then make some up" - if any of you doubt this statement - simply ask JJ to provide PROOF of ALL his allegations he has made in his "pm" to you. Then sit back and wait. IF he responds "EVALUATE HIS REPLY"
Particularly ask him to NAME the eight females he alleges DIED after being mated to Rocky. Surely he must know who they are especially with him being so specific with their number. Their names should be posted on this thread. Ha Ha Ha - impossible. Now there is a real challenge, that JJ and bazza cannot accept.
by Sue B on 26 October 2009 - 13:10
Hi Dave and all, This test is now patented, but does a Patent prove its reliability? If a JRD test already existed for other breeds, why does one for GSD;s have to be separately patented? When Hips / Elbows etc are scored the results are published, in Germany when DNA for proof of parentage is taken the results are published, when Heamophilia blood tests are taken the sheet paperwork set up under the BC scheme requires identification to go along with the Blood and to my understanding the results were put onto the BC Databaset but more importantly the Breed via the BC were immediately Alerted to any POSITIVE result.s.
A test without CHECKS and without publication of results, at least those found to be POSITIVE of the problem are little more than useless to anyone other than the owner and then the breed relies heavily of their integrity. Years ago we all had to rely on integrity and for the most part I believe it existed in abundance. However that was when the game was mainly a Hobby thus before it became so financially and/or egotistically rewarding. Now it is fair to say when it comes to being reliably honest about absolutely everything I totally trust very few and some of that has sadly being lost because of the nastiness, bitterness and downright underhandedness performed via the internet , on this database and in other ways. How many wants to be totally Honest when all it gets them is to be ridiculed, bullied and cyberstalked by the many annonymous morons that lurk here and to some degree even some not so annymous (in that I and others are aware of who they are and/or which camp they belong to). I was totally honest about things to do with my female and where did that get me!! Doesnt stop me being honest, THE BREED AND MY INTEGRETY IS FAR TO IMPORTANT TO ME THAN THE COMMENTS OR OPINIONS OF MISGUIDED, NASTY, JELOUSE PEOPLE, anonymous or otherwise. But then thats me, but it also dont help to send me rushing into the next minefield without a little more proof that the rest are being as honest and open about their results.
Regards
Sue b
A test without CHECKS and without publication of results, at least those found to be POSITIVE of the problem are little more than useless to anyone other than the owner and then the breed relies heavily of their integrity. Years ago we all had to rely on integrity and for the most part I believe it existed in abundance. However that was when the game was mainly a Hobby thus before it became so financially and/or egotistically rewarding. Now it is fair to say when it comes to being reliably honest about absolutely everything I totally trust very few and some of that has sadly being lost because of the nastiness, bitterness and downright underhandedness performed via the internet , on this database and in other ways. How many wants to be totally Honest when all it gets them is to be ridiculed, bullied and cyberstalked by the many annonymous morons that lurk here and to some degree even some not so annymous (in that I and others are aware of who they are and/or which camp they belong to). I was totally honest about things to do with my female and where did that get me!! Doesnt stop me being honest, THE BREED AND MY INTEGRETY IS FAR TO IMPORTANT TO ME THAN THE COMMENTS OR OPINIONS OF MISGUIDED, NASTY, JELOUSE PEOPLE, anonymous or otherwise. But then thats me, but it also dont help to send me rushing into the next minefield without a little more proof that the rest are being as honest and open about their results.
Regards
Sue b
by Trotters123 on 26 October 2009 - 14:10
Sue B - VERY WELL SAID and UNFORTUNATELY VERY TRUE!
I wish things too could be like the 'good old days' when a Gentlemans agreement meant just that.
When dealing with any form of livestock one must be as honest as possible. If one gets tests performed on ones stock then lie about the outcome you are not only hurting others, the breed/species in general but your own reputation because as always 'the truth will out!'
I hope for the breeds sake all this S**T that has been flying about recently gets fixed. Not just the KC dilema but the health problems too. Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if ALL animals were tested by reliable sources, identified, results published AND only the animals who pass these tests be allowed to be used for breeding. I know I have just put on my rose tinted glasses, but surely we are all supposed to have ONE thing true to heart and that is the guardianship of this breed, regardless of stature, acclaims, monetary benefits or our own mis-guided ego.
Again, well said Sue.
Frank
I wish things too could be like the 'good old days' when a Gentlemans agreement meant just that.
When dealing with any form of livestock one must be as honest as possible. If one gets tests performed on ones stock then lie about the outcome you are not only hurting others, the breed/species in general but your own reputation because as always 'the truth will out!'
I hope for the breeds sake all this S**T that has been flying about recently gets fixed. Not just the KC dilema but the health problems too. Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if ALL animals were tested by reliable sources, identified, results published AND only the animals who pass these tests be allowed to be used for breeding. I know I have just put on my rose tinted glasses, but surely we are all supposed to have ONE thing true to heart and that is the guardianship of this breed, regardless of stature, acclaims, monetary benefits or our own mis-guided ego.
Again, well said Sue.
Frank
by Videx on 26 October 2009 - 14:10
The JRD DNA test is not for specific breeds of dogs. The same test is used for all breeds of dogs. If the test finds the JRD mutated gene, that dog, that breed has JRD. the only questions remaining "how many GSD have the JRD gene mutation"? and "where are they"? and "who are they"? and "what is done regarding breeding from carriers"?
GSD have been bred for over 100 years without a JRD DNA test, and most of those years without many other health screening tests. Another 10 or 20 years may not make a huge difference, then again fate may decree otherwise. I can only say that GSD in my kennel and used for breeding will remain JRD Clear.
I have tested mine, what others do is entirely up to them. Many breeders use males that are not Haemophilia tested, In Germany I don't know of any males that are Haemophilia tested. They obviously do not think it is a serious problem, perhaps they are right. Similarly I have no problem with breeders deciding NOT to JRD test.
Many GSD breeders breed for GSD with hundreds of lines to known "epileptics" - they are not bothered by what they do. Many breeders do not have "elbows" scored, they are not bothered. So what's new? Each breeder evaluates what they want to do and what they do not want to do. GSD breeders in Great Britain have far more freedom of choice than those in Germany and many other European countries.
I have already advocated a Breed Council scheme in an earlier post. For almost a year I have advocated a DNA Parentage Scheme, compatible with the SV scheme, to be run by the BC or the GSDL, alongside tattoo/Microchip requirement. So far ZERO response. The interesting debate is WHY is there any delay in introducing such basic essentials for our breeds future. Surely accurate identification and accurate pedigrees should be our breeds foundation for all things, health screening tests, breeding decisions, competitions, etc.
GSD have been bred for over 100 years without a JRD DNA test, and most of those years without many other health screening tests. Another 10 or 20 years may not make a huge difference, then again fate may decree otherwise. I can only say that GSD in my kennel and used for breeding will remain JRD Clear.
I have tested mine, what others do is entirely up to them. Many breeders use males that are not Haemophilia tested, In Germany I don't know of any males that are Haemophilia tested. They obviously do not think it is a serious problem, perhaps they are right. Similarly I have no problem with breeders deciding NOT to JRD test.
Many GSD breeders breed for GSD with hundreds of lines to known "epileptics" - they are not bothered by what they do. Many breeders do not have "elbows" scored, they are not bothered. So what's new? Each breeder evaluates what they want to do and what they do not want to do. GSD breeders in Great Britain have far more freedom of choice than those in Germany and many other European countries.
I have already advocated a Breed Council scheme in an earlier post. For almost a year I have advocated a DNA Parentage Scheme, compatible with the SV scheme, to be run by the BC or the GSDL, alongside tattoo/Microchip requirement. So far ZERO response. The interesting debate is WHY is there any delay in introducing such basic essentials for our breeds future. Surely accurate identification and accurate pedigrees should be our breeds foundation for all things, health screening tests, breeding decisions, competitions, etc.
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