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by qdogg691 on 04 February 2010 - 19:02
My female started having trouble 3 weeks ago, she was slow to get around. Within three weeks she has gone downhill fast, cant control her rear end, feet knuckling under, has no stability. My vet has diagnosed her with Degenerative Myelopathy, he says there is no fix. Just looking for some insight.
Thanks
Marty
Thanks
Marty
by SitasMom on 04 February 2010 - 19:02
by qdogg691 on 04 February 2010 - 23:02
SitasMom, thank you for the two links. After looking at them it has me wondering about prognosis, this has came on rapidly. Is there anything else that would cause this? If anyone has insight please give it because watching this is killing me and my vet says there is nothing that can be done.
Thank You
Marty
by hodie on 04 February 2010 - 23:02
It is very possible that the diagnosis is correct. The demylination process can be slower or very quick. However, yes, there are other possibilities related to some sort of lesion or trauma on the spinal cord or the involved nerves. The best bet is to take the dog to a canine neurologist ASAP if it is anything other than DM. There is really not much that can be done with DM, despite what many here will try to tell you and what all of us wish for. But, if there is pressure on the spinal cord, for instance, the more quickly that is relieved, the better the prognosis for the dog.
Good luck.
Good luck.
by qdogg691 on 04 February 2010 - 23:02
Thanks Hodie, I havent been on here for a while but I do remember you being very knowledgeable. Thank you for the help not sure where I fill find a neuro around but I look.
Thanks
marty
by hodie on 05 February 2010 - 01:02
Marty,
You don't say how old the dog is. DM usually does not show up until the dog is middle aged. So if this is a young dog, then I would lean towards an injury or something else causing compression or damage to the nerves. But, as an example, this past fall I had to put a beloved female down. In the summer, she started dragging one foot, and soon it was both, and very soon after that she could not put her rear feet where they should go (called a loss of proprioception - the awareness of where one's body is). I would say that from the time I first noted her dragging a foot, until it became very severe and she was not able to properly place her rear feet was probably 4-5 months. I have seen other dogs progress more rapidly, and some very slowly (more than a year went by before the dog could not control its hind feet). So DM progression can vary. However, when one is uncertain, the best thing to do is have the dog checked out by a good vet or specialist. Also, in the meantime, make sure the dog is not too heavy, and protect the nails if they are wearing to the extent of bleeding. Some people believe in getting a cart for a dog who has lost function in either end. I don't believe in that, but carts do exist and can provide some length of time more with the dog. Eventually, if it is DM, the outcome is not going to change and the dog will in all likelihood also loose control of elimination functions. It is never easy to decide when it is time to put a dog down. That is why getting an expert opinion might be useful to you. In the meantime, love her!!
Good luck.
You don't say how old the dog is. DM usually does not show up until the dog is middle aged. So if this is a young dog, then I would lean towards an injury or something else causing compression or damage to the nerves. But, as an example, this past fall I had to put a beloved female down. In the summer, she started dragging one foot, and soon it was both, and very soon after that she could not put her rear feet where they should go (called a loss of proprioception - the awareness of where one's body is). I would say that from the time I first noted her dragging a foot, until it became very severe and she was not able to properly place her rear feet was probably 4-5 months. I have seen other dogs progress more rapidly, and some very slowly (more than a year went by before the dog could not control its hind feet). So DM progression can vary. However, when one is uncertain, the best thing to do is have the dog checked out by a good vet or specialist. Also, in the meantime, make sure the dog is not too heavy, and protect the nails if they are wearing to the extent of bleeding. Some people believe in getting a cart for a dog who has lost function in either end. I don't believe in that, but carts do exist and can provide some length of time more with the dog. Eventually, if it is DM, the outcome is not going to change and the dog will in all likelihood also loose control of elimination functions. It is never easy to decide when it is time to put a dog down. That is why getting an expert opinion might be useful to you. In the meantime, love her!!
Good luck.
by marjorie on 05 February 2010 - 22:02
DM does not go fast, until the final stages. therefore, you have received an incorrect diagnosi. There is no way DM would go from a bit of difficulty getting up to a full fledged problem in 3 weeks, such as you described. It just doesnt happen like that- DM is an insideous disease, creeping up almost imperceptively. There are many diseases and conditions which can mimic DM
.
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
.
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by marjorie on 05 February 2010 - 23:02
The Stages of Degenerative Myelopathy
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by marjorie on 05 February 2010 - 23:02
Now that was weird- it didnt post @@- trying again...
People have often written and telephoned asking me to explain what they might expect throughout the various stages of Degenerative Myelopathy. As there has been such interest in a description of the various stages of this disease, I thought writing an article would be helpful to educate people about what they might expect throughout the different stages of the disease.
The early stages of Degenerative Myelopathy start with an almost imperceptible weakness in the hindquarters. DM is an insidious disease and it is all too easy to overlook, in it's earlier stages, unless you are specifically looking . Even then, DM is elusive and hard to detect.
(I always check the rear nails on a dog once a month for uneven wear, especially on the innermost nails of the rear feet, as this is an early tip-off to DM.)
In early and up to the mid-mid stage DM, occasionally you will hear the sound of the dog’s nails scraping on the pavement during a walk. This scraping will not be constant; rather, will present periodically. The dog will begin to show some difficulty getting up. If the dog is standing, it may have difficulty balancing, but it can recover on its own. If you turn the dog’s toes under in this stage, the dog may still be able to right its foot, although response time could be lengthened.
As the disease further progresses to late mid-stage, difficulty getting up increases. The nails begin to scrape more often on the pavement, until it becomes constant. As the disease progresses, the rear legs will cross under the dog’s body as the dog, losing sensation in its hindquarters, will not know where it has actually placed its feet. Faulty perception of foot placement leads to tripping and stumbling.
When the dog is in a standing position, if you move the dog from side to side, using your hands, the dog will lose its balance and topple over. Often, you will notice exaggerated movements, such a high stepping when going up a curb. This is due to prioceptive functions being affected by DM.
The tail will rarely become active and wag. If the tail is longer, the dog’s legs will easily become tangled in it. If the dog’s foot is placed on the ground, toes down, the dog will not right its foot, or they may be a delayed response time. The reason for this delay is due to the fact that the dog cannot feel its foot; hence, the dog knuckles. A dog with feeling in its hind paws will have a quick/quicker response in placing its foot in the proper position. A dog with little or no feeling will have a slow or non-existent reflex action placing its foot in the proper, pad-down position.
As DM becomes more advanced, in early late-stage DM, uncontrolled jerkiness of the rear legs and tail signals that the nerve impulses are going haywire and short- circuiting. Kicking out with the rear legs, without reason, will be observed, along with the tail seeming to raise and lower, as if the dog is preparing to defecate.
Sometimes, if you pinch the pad of one foot, the other foot will respond. This is called Cross Extensor Response. Maintaining balance during defecation becomes almost impossible. When the dog squats, it will lose its balance and fall.
As the disease process reaches late stage, the dog will not be able to bear any weight, on its own, in the hindquarters. The affected dog will not be able to get up or, once lifted, will not be able to remain in a standing position, without some form of support for its hindquarters.
In late stage DM, this can happen overnight or within the space of a few days. I always counsel people with DM dogs not to wait until the dog goes down to have the appropriate equipment on hand for dealing with what is most definitely, at this point in time, inevitable. I am not a *fan* of towel walking,
People have often written and telephoned asking me to explain what they might expect throughout the various stages of Degenerative Myelopathy. As there has been such interest in a description of the various stages of this disease, I thought writing an article would be helpful to educate people about what they might expect throughout the different stages of the disease.
The early stages of Degenerative Myelopathy start with an almost imperceptible weakness in the hindquarters. DM is an insidious disease and it is all too easy to overlook, in it's earlier stages, unless you are specifically looking . Even then, DM is elusive and hard to detect.
(I always check the rear nails on a dog once a month for uneven wear, especially on the innermost nails of the rear feet, as this is an early tip-off to DM.)
In early and up to the mid-mid stage DM, occasionally you will hear the sound of the dog’s nails scraping on the pavement during a walk. This scraping will not be constant; rather, will present periodically. The dog will begin to show some difficulty getting up. If the dog is standing, it may have difficulty balancing, but it can recover on its own. If you turn the dog’s toes under in this stage, the dog may still be able to right its foot, although response time could be lengthened.
As the disease further progresses to late mid-stage, difficulty getting up increases. The nails begin to scrape more often on the pavement, until it becomes constant. As the disease progresses, the rear legs will cross under the dog’s body as the dog, losing sensation in its hindquarters, will not know where it has actually placed its feet. Faulty perception of foot placement leads to tripping and stumbling.
When the dog is in a standing position, if you move the dog from side to side, using your hands, the dog will lose its balance and topple over. Often, you will notice exaggerated movements, such a high stepping when going up a curb. This is due to prioceptive functions being affected by DM.
The tail will rarely become active and wag. If the tail is longer, the dog’s legs will easily become tangled in it. If the dog’s foot is placed on the ground, toes down, the dog will not right its foot, or they may be a delayed response time. The reason for this delay is due to the fact that the dog cannot feel its foot; hence, the dog knuckles. A dog with feeling in its hind paws will have a quick/quicker response in placing its foot in the proper position. A dog with little or no feeling will have a slow or non-existent reflex action placing its foot in the proper, pad-down position.
As DM becomes more advanced, in early late-stage DM, uncontrolled jerkiness of the rear legs and tail signals that the nerve impulses are going haywire and short- circuiting. Kicking out with the rear legs, without reason, will be observed, along with the tail seeming to raise and lower, as if the dog is preparing to defecate.
Sometimes, if you pinch the pad of one foot, the other foot will respond. This is called Cross Extensor Response. Maintaining balance during defecation becomes almost impossible. When the dog squats, it will lose its balance and fall.
As the disease process reaches late stage, the dog will not be able to bear any weight, on its own, in the hindquarters. The affected dog will not be able to get up or, once lifted, will not be able to remain in a standing position, without some form of support for its hindquarters.
In late stage DM, this can happen overnight or within the space of a few days. I always counsel people with DM dogs not to wait until the dog goes down to have the appropriate equipment on hand for dealing with what is most definitely, at this point in time, inevitable. I am not a *fan* of towel walking,
by marjorie on 05 February 2010 - 23:02
I am not a *fan* of towel walking, as it can place pressure on the bladder, causing the dog to urinate. Urinary incontinence and bowel incontinence will occur, inevitably.
Our instincts tell us to try to protect the dog’s feet from bleeding, due to knuckling. However, booties on the feet are NOT a good idea, due to the fact that booties interfere with foot placement and the conduction of nerve impulses. If you place booties upon a DM dog's feet, you can actually do more harm. A DM dog with booties is apt to fall more often suffering consequences such as cruciate ligament tears, knee injuries, disk injuries and further spinal damage. You are better walking the dog on grassy surfaces while using a rear end harness, which will allow you to lift the hindquarters into a position for correct foot placement. Carts can be successfully used, outdoors. There are many new lightweight carts that have been introduced to the marketplace.
Never, and I do mean never, ever, hold or attempt to hold a DM dog up by its tail!!! To do so, can cause great harm to a DM dog!! Holding a DM dog up, supporting it, or lifting it by the tail can break the tail. Please- do not do this to your DM dog. By doing so, you put your dog in grave danger and in harm's way. DM is a terribly destructive disease without complicating it by ignorant and thoughtless actions. Should a vet suggests this as a method of transporting your DM dog or implies and encourages this as a way to deal with a DM dog- run, don’t walk, to another vet, please!
If your dog is exhibiting pain, it probably isn’t DM, unless there is a concurrent condition. DM is not painful. There is zero pain because the nerve cells have died.
Myelograms do not rule in DM - they rule out surgical disease. Before a myelogram is undertaken, an Electromyogram should be given. EMG results can differentiate between peripheral nerve disease, inter-vertebral disc disease and myelitis and polyradiculoneuropathy. It is not wrong to rule out the presence of surgical disease (DM is one of the non-surgical diseases), but it can be better to start testing for DM with the least invasive tests, leaving the more serious tests for last.
Degenerative Myelopathy is believed to be an inflammatory, autoimmune disease where the immune system attacks the dog's central nervous system. This attack leads to a loss of insulation around the nerve fibers (myelin) and of nerve fibers (axons). The animal can no longer walk, once the nerves in the spinal cord are destroyed. Without nerve connections, muscles cannot work. The control pathways that make muscles work are located all throughout the spinal cord.
In another words, to simplify things, DM = inflammatory autoimmune disease= immune system attack's central nervous system = loss of myelin and axons=nerves in spinal cord destroyed = control pathways destroyed =muscles wont work = dog loses ability to walk.
I hope this has explained the various stages of Degenerative Myelopathy, and has imparted greater knowledge in relation to correctly dealing with the stages and mobility problems associated with DM. I pray that none of you will ever need this information...
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
Our instincts tell us to try to protect the dog’s feet from bleeding, due to knuckling. However, booties on the feet are NOT a good idea, due to the fact that booties interfere with foot placement and the conduction of nerve impulses. If you place booties upon a DM dog's feet, you can actually do more harm. A DM dog with booties is apt to fall more often suffering consequences such as cruciate ligament tears, knee injuries, disk injuries and further spinal damage. You are better walking the dog on grassy surfaces while using a rear end harness, which will allow you to lift the hindquarters into a position for correct foot placement. Carts can be successfully used, outdoors. There are many new lightweight carts that have been introduced to the marketplace.
Never, and I do mean never, ever, hold or attempt to hold a DM dog up by its tail!!! To do so, can cause great harm to a DM dog!! Holding a DM dog up, supporting it, or lifting it by the tail can break the tail. Please- do not do this to your DM dog. By doing so, you put your dog in grave danger and in harm's way. DM is a terribly destructive disease without complicating it by ignorant and thoughtless actions. Should a vet suggests this as a method of transporting your DM dog or implies and encourages this as a way to deal with a DM dog- run, don’t walk, to another vet, please!
If your dog is exhibiting pain, it probably isn’t DM, unless there is a concurrent condition. DM is not painful. There is zero pain because the nerve cells have died.
Myelograms do not rule in DM - they rule out surgical disease. Before a myelogram is undertaken, an Electromyogram should be given. EMG results can differentiate between peripheral nerve disease, inter-vertebral disc disease and myelitis and polyradiculoneuropathy. It is not wrong to rule out the presence of surgical disease (DM is one of the non-surgical diseases), but it can be better to start testing for DM with the least invasive tests, leaving the more serious tests for last.
Degenerative Myelopathy is believed to be an inflammatory, autoimmune disease where the immune system attacks the dog's central nervous system. This attack leads to a loss of insulation around the nerve fibers (myelin) and of nerve fibers (axons). The animal can no longer walk, once the nerves in the spinal cord are destroyed. Without nerve connections, muscles cannot work. The control pathways that make muscles work are located all throughout the spinal cord.
In another words, to simplify things, DM = inflammatory autoimmune disease= immune system attack's central nervous system = loss of myelin and axons=nerves in spinal cord destroyed = control pathways destroyed =muscles wont work = dog loses ability to walk.
I hope this has explained the various stages of Degenerative Myelopathy, and has imparted greater knowledge in relation to correctly dealing with the stages and mobility problems associated with DM. I pray that none of you will ever need this information...
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
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