GSD FCI and AKC Breed Standard Comparison Chart - Page 1

With the reason that one of the main reasons for USA to become exclusionary in their membership is that GSDCA and WDA do not have FCI breed standards, I actually went and read them for myself.  There really are no differences.  Again, its the people who breed and show and judge dogs in all clubs, that are not comporting to the Standards -  have a look at the link below.  All I did was cut and paste and put them side by side to make it a little easier for everyone.  Its amazing that they are almost duplicate and they both originally came from the SV - I had heard a few years back that the SV wanted to see the standards and when they saw them, they agreed it was almost identical.   What can be said is that  100%  of breeders in any club are not breeding to the standard nor judging to the standard.  My sources are on the chart. 

Here's the link: http://www.vomhausleclair.com/GSD%20Breed%20Standard%20Comparision.pdf

Wow yeah almost identical except way different.   Rationalizing or minimizing the differences does not do the breed any favors. 

1.  Size - kind of important.  When you lift the size requirement you end up with oversized  behemouths too clumsy to work, but I guess this doesn't really matter since the only "work" required for AKC breeding stock is to be able to do a flying trot and look flashy in the ring, and those big dogs certainly are flashy.

2.  Dentition - kind of important, especially for grip work, again something not important to Am Line breeding stock, plus less pesky teeth to count.

3.  The FCI standard calls for a dog who is elongated.  The GSDCA AKC standard calls for a dog 10:81/2.  This creates too long of a dog,  not a big deal and maybe even advantageous when you want that flying trot they love so much, but kind of hinders a workiing dog.

4.  The proportions of the head are not mentioned in the AKC standard, maybe this accounts for the collie heads.

5.  Temperment - Kind of important, but GSDCA AKC only disqualifies a dog who attempts to bite a judge.  Wonder why they don't disqualify a dog who is overly shy with weak temperment and bad nerves?  Oh that's right, that's all covered under "attempts to bite a judge" at least according to GSDCA AKC. 

There are many major differences in the standard.  The arrogance of AKC GSDCA to deviate because somehow they think they know better than the SV/WUSV and FCI is a joke.  The fact that the AKC GSDCA went it's own way and diverted from the standard is the reason the AKC American Show Shepherd no longer a GSD as far as most of the rest of the world is concerned. Every single person well versed in GSDs, can differentiate in a single glance a dog bred to the FCI standard from an Am Line show dog bred according to the AKC standard. It becomes even more evident when you see the major temperament/character faults displayed by AKC American Line dogs. 

I would agree with Kim that the "devil is in the details". In actuality, in this situation, it is EXACTLY that the conformation judges and breeders (many of whom are the same in all organizations) make the standard, whichever one it is, fit what they are breeding and hence, fit what they are judging. I have shown my German dogs in AKC. I have also talked to the judges, and each time they told me they were breeders and each time, although we placed well, it was clear that the judges were judging conformation based on the subtle and not so subtle differences to which the typical AKC bred dog in America has evolved. It is no different really than the situation in Germany where the breeders, and hence judges, started to breed and judge to their subtle differences years ago, splitting the breed into show vs working lines (speaking strictly in conformation issues) and many of these differences also compromise the working ability of the dog. Nor is it different than any other breed in which humans have had a hand selectively breeding, both here and around the world. So, my point is that we who so dislike the way AKC dogs are judged could and probably should have been more involved all along in trying to steer the course.

One issue that becomes very difficult in addition to conformational issues, is the definition of working ability and temperament. I am not one to make broad and sweeping generalizations about this. There are dogs in each line of conformation, including dogs coming from the best strictly working lines who do not have the right abilities for working, for police work, for Schutzhund, ring sport or whatever. Those who are extremists on the one hand will suggest that if a dog cannot do some "work", defined as they define it, the dog is no good at all. I believe this too is faulty reasoning. Just like with human beings, there are all kinds of genetic gifts and all kinds of personalities. So it is true in the animal kingdom. And also, it has been my experience that often a dog who someone thinks can do nothing, can, indeed, when put in the right hands, do quite a lot.

I believe it critical to maintain the breed as a working breed. But I also believe that to ignore conformational issues is a huge mistake. We can think of many changes we can and have made in GSDs, that have not been particularly beneficial for the breed in a variety of ways. Breeding specifically for really large dogs, for example, or for extreme angulation of the hindquarters, would be an example. But, if reading the posts here on this forum in the past are any indication, most people cannot properly discuss conformation because they do not understand the terms. Just read one of the "Critique my dog" posts and you see how little people really understand. It would be better if most people simply said, "I like your dog", but even better that the original poster wanting such information would learn to critique his/her own dog properly. If we cannot agree on specific terms, then it is hopeless that we can ever agree on what is and is not meeting the standard. The same could be said for temperament and working ability.

So again, the "devil is in the details". No one organization in this country is the steward for the GSD breed as exists, for example, with Borzois. It is harmful to the breed as a whole that the interested parties cannot develop a common language, common interpretation and understanding and then progress down a path together that preserves the breed. Given however, the incredible numbers of people who breed for all the wrong reasons and know so little about the breed and what makes it unique, regardless of what breed is involved, it is doubtful that even if the various interested organizations could step up and work together so that real progress opn a consensus could ever be made. As for the average Joe and Josephine citizen, they don't care to lea

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As for the average Joe and Josephine citizen, they don't care to learn anything about breed standards and purchase accordingly. Most just want a "rug that licks". And there are plenty of other breeds that would be a better fit for such people if someone would insist they educate themselves about what kind of dog to bring into their home.

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As for the average Joe and Josephine citizen, they don't care to learn anything about breed standards and purchase accordingly. Most just want a "rug that licks". And there are plenty of other breeds that would be a better fit for such people if someone would insist they educate themselves about what kind of dog to bring into their home.

Again, the "argument" and battle cry is that the two Standards are different and any club that does not have the FCI name stamped on their breed standard is an antichrist club and we all need to stick to the true religion club.  As anyone who can critically and comprehensively read they are not different.  So the breed standards are not at fault.  Those not adhering to them are at fault and that is in ALL clubs on any continent.  Their is no club in the world where all members breed to the breed standard. 

When the food on people's tables, meaning their livelihood, and their ability to particpate with the dogs is dependent on breeding litters to support themselves and also their dog habit, then you will always see a diversion from the breed standards.  It takes it from idealism to survival.

I am not beating up on anyone, but take the statement that one club has made that theyhave been the protector of the breed for 35 years - OK in that many generations of breeding, how many dogs bred in the US have become international champions?  The ones I know about, which have been few, have been from imported dog breedings.  There certainly has been ample time for many generations of dogs bred in the US to have achieved this self proported greatness - surely the guardians of the breed would be suppling dogs to the world, other countries to improve their breeding programs if anyone here had done such a bang up job.  Now just how many dogs were sold to other countries from the US last year?  What WUSV champ or conformation Sieger in any country was bred in the US? 

The truth is the breed standard has nothing to do with any arguement of one club being better than another.  Do all dogs that belong to members in the different clubs look similar - yes they sure do because friends sell to friends.  So just because everyone's dogs look alike does not mean they are bred to the standard.  It's for the most part a mutual admiration society.  But all comporting to a breed standard - don't kid yourself.

As a friend of mine said: "I hope the working line people in USA are not deceiving themselves that their dogs comply 100% with the SV/FCI standard. And the same goes for the showline people for different breed standard reasons. The AKC line people just need to go to remedial reading/comprehension classes re their standard. They obviously have a problem putting the visual pictures created in their standard into real life dogs in and out of the show ring."

I am no champion of the American GSD's, but if everyone would quit having tunnel vision, only about 20% of the American GSD's are in the showring that are entered - the rest of the 80% do not look like the show ring dogs.  The are mentally and physically able to do the agility, tracking, obedience, rally, AKC herding.  If anyone says the higher levels of some of these venues don't take a dog that is physically and mentally sound, well then, that person is judging without actually seeing these dogs and just trying to make themselves look more important.

The breed standards are the same, the variance in the actual dogs is due to people making money selling their dogs amoungst themselves and that 90% (guessing) of all of these big noble cause breeding to the standard litters end up in pet homes.  Just because a dog can perform in Schutzhund does not mean it has been bred 100% to the breed standard. Just because a dog is breed surveyed, same argument again.  No one club can have the arrogance to say all of their dogs comport and they are the guardian of the breed.

The reason for the this thread, was not to argue how people interpret and in actuality breed, it is to point out that the breed standards are almost identical with no huge difference and there is no real way to co

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The reason for the this thread, was not to argue how people interpret and in actuality breed, it is to point out that the breed standards are almost identical with no huge difference and there is no real way to control it as long as people, including judges profit from selling litters. Until the money equation is taken out which will never happen, it will never be a purley aesetic pursuit.

Who has what breed standard, called toe-may-toe or toe-mah-toe, its still tomato and since there is no differnence, the battle cry for exclusion cannot be based on what you call the breed standard.

Sue - responses below:

1. Size - kind of important. When you lift the size requirement you end up with oversized behemouths too clumsy to work, but I guess this doesn't really matter since the only "work" required for AKC breeding stock is to be able to do a flying trot and look flashy in the ring, and those big dogs certainly are flashy.  The breed standards compared side by side, are the same within 4/10's of an inch. This is a huge problem even in countries where the title of their breed standard is FCI.  Also, how many dogs in this country bred by members of the exclusionary club or others  measure correctly without standing the dog  in a hole?   My thread is not about compliance to the standard, but rather in response to there is a reason to only belong to USA because AKC does not recognize the FCI breed standard.and showing they are same as identical.


2. Dentition - kind of important, especially for grip work, again something not important to Am Line breeding stock, plus less pesky teeth to count. Dentition compared side by side are the same. My thread is not about compliance to the standard, but rather in response to there is a reason to only belong to USA because AKC does not recognize the FCI breed standard.and showing they are same as identical.



3. The FCI standard calls for a dog who is elongated. The GSDCA AKC standard calls for a dog 10:81/2. This creates too long of a dog, not a big deal and maybe even advantageous when you want that flying trot they love so much, but kind of hinders a workiing dog. 1 1/2 digits in ratio does not create a long anything in my mind - its almost square.  My thread is not about compliance to the standard, but rather in response to there is a reason to only belong to USA because AKC does not recognize the FCI breed standard and showing they are same as identical.


4. The proportions of the head are not mentioned in the AKC standard, maybe this accounts for the collie heads. Correct on it not being defined, however I doubt if that is what accounts for "collie heads"  - you did know that GSD's genetically go back to collies and other herding dogs -  again no one is forced to breed per any breed standard -On of the greatest workig dogs that won the WUSV 3 times was Orry v. Antwerpa - that dog had the narrowest head I think ever created. Gee and he was not bred by an American and gee, he won the WUSV how many times???? Again, my thread is not about compliance to the standard, but rather in response to there is a reason to only belong to USA because AKC does not recognize the FCI breed standard and showing they are same as identical.


5. Temperment - Kind of important, but GSDCA AKC only disqualifies a dog who attempts to bite a judge. Wonder why they don't disqualify a dog who is overly shy with weak temperment and bad nerves? Oh that's right, that's all covered under "attempts to bite a judge" at least according to GSDCA AKC. Under Behavior/Temperament it speaks to those issues. My thread is not about compliance to the standard, but rather in response to there is a reason to only belong to USA because AKC does not recognize the FCI breed standard and showing they are same as identical.

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The arrogance of AKC GSDCA to deviate because somehow they think they know better than the SV/WUSV and FCI is a joke.  Again it is not about clubs deviating, its about individuals - GSDCA does also offer a showcase of adherance in the physical dogs to SV/WUSV FCI through its GSDCA-WDA "branch". Again, my thread is not about compliance to the standard, but rather in response to there is a reason to only belong to USA because AKC does not recognize the FCI breed standard and showing they are same as identical.

I don't think anyone can put up an argument that the GSDCA has been anything other than a pathetic "guardian" of the breed in the U.S.

As far as structure, the main difference in the standards is in the judging, not the wording.

And anyone trying to say that the only criteria for producing better dogs is adhering to the FCI Standard must not be paying attention to what goes on at the German SS year in and year out.

I spent a lot of years GSDCA, became disgusted with the direction of character in the GSD. Well guess what, found many examples of just as poor character in Germany.

It is the breed that matters, not this ridiculous bantering and posturing between the UScA and WDA activists (apologists).

JMHO,
Rik