breeding snafu? Help! - Page 1

I bought a sable puppy out of these 2 dogs.  (No I was stupid, and I wasn't aware of sable genetics.)  I talked to the breeder, and they are pissed, because I "insulted" them by asking  if one of there sable males could have gotten to the female.  I don't see how this sable girl could be from this dad.  All I want is corrected papers.  All their dogs are imported and have DNA numbers.  I don't want to give up the puppy, because she  is fabulous.  I ordered a DNA kit for her from AKC.  The breeder swears that it was impossible for another stud to be the father.  I fear they will be uncooperative.  I would be willing to pay the $40 to have parentage verified, but I believe they need to give their consent to have there dogs DNA info released.   How would you handle this situation? 

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/502321.html
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/470969.html

the mother is a bi-color, so I think it is possible to get a sable! Hopefully some one with more gentic knowledge will answer

People, People.  How many times, how many threads about color genetics has to be posted before you get it?  It is VERY simple.  Every single GSD has TWO color genes.  TWO.  ONLY TWO.  Each and every puppy inherits ONE color gene from EACH parent.  ONE from dad, and ONE from mom = TWO.  They do not inherit ANY Color gene (zero, zilch, nada, never, none at all) from ANY OTHER DOG IN THE PEDIGREE.  NO color gene inherited from granddad, grandmom, sibling of dad, sibling of mom - NONE.  Only ONE from each PARENT.

Sable is ALWAYS DOMINANT over every other color.  There are only three base colors to even think about - THREE.  Sable, Black/tan (bicolor included) and black.  SABLE IS ALWAYS DOMINANT OVER ALL OTHER COLORS.  BLACK IS RECESSIVE UNDER ALL OTHER COLORS.  Black/tan is dominant over black, and recessive to sable.

This means that IF A DOG HAS A SABLE GENE TO GIVE TO THE PUPPIES, IT IS A SABLE DOG.  No sable gene to give to the puppies = NOT A SABLE DOG.

Both parents in this thread are NOT SABLE DOGS.  Obviously, the female is either a black with bleeding, or melanistic bicolor - either way she is NOT A SABLE, and therefore she cannot give a sable gene to the puppies BECAUSE SHE DOES NOT CARRY A SABLE GENE.

Dad is obviously a black dog - or whatever he is, he is obviously NOT A SABLE DOG.  Not being a sable dog, he cannot pass a sable gene on to any of his puppies.

So the poster bought a sable puppy from a breeder who claims this black dog sired his puppy.  Not from that female, he didn't!  So usually it's pretty certain which female whelped the litter - so the sire is the one in question.

THERE IS NO, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, NEVER IN A MILLION TRILLION BAZILLION CHANCES IN THE DEPTHS OF HELL that this sable puppy - if it's indeed a sable - came from that sire.  NO CHANCE.

If I were you (owner of the sable pup) get him DNA tested and speak with AKC DNA about it, also contact AKC and probably AKC case management about it.  You will get your papers straightened out or the breeder will be in trouble with the registry.  Good luck.

molly

I think the only way this can happen is if mom is a VERY black sable.  There's no way I can tell that at this point.  She is listed as black and tan.  I tried to be as nice about it as I could, and I'm willing to pay for the test myself.  If the DNA test comes back fine then great!  But I paid for a competion dog, and now I have a dog with a dubious pedigree. I've had SEVERAL people tell me that puppy is no way from this father. If the breeder is honest, I can't see how addressing my concern (at my expense) should be a problem.

i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq183/csimmons1/quinn11weeks044.jpg


Wonderful puppy in question.  As sable as they come.

Whose yur daddy?

One or both of the dogs pictured are not the parent of this pup.  If you see a sable pup, you will see at least one sable parent.

Indeed sable does not come from bicolors, it doesn't come appearing out of a black, it isn't carried along hidden in a pedigree from sable gggrandparents,etc. Sable baby=sable parent.

Well, there ya go!  I stand corrected and educated!

Vickie

Mom can't be a very black sable, because both of HER parents are black/tan.  NO sable puppies from parents that are not sable!  It takes at least one sable parent to produce a sable pup!  So, mom is either black with bleeding, or dark bicolor.  No sable gene to give.  Dad is obviously black - no sable gene to give.  Your pup is obviously sable,  no question about that - so parentage is definately in question.

molly

It surprises me that the "breeders" of the litter don't know enough about "color gene genetics" to question the puppies DNA...?
Maybe the buyer should inform them of the info posted.....so they feel less "insulted" and a little more "concerned".
A litter can be sired by more than 1 sire.......they need to correct the paperwork.
Everyone learns something in breeding....maybe it's their time!

Best of luck! Very cute puppy!
Robin