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by Uber Land on 17 August 2009 - 00:08
ED NOCH ZUGELASSEN... Does this mean the dog has elbow dysplasia?
by crhuerta on 17 August 2009 - 02:08
It means his elbows have "passed" by the SV standards.
by Uber Land on 17 August 2009 - 03:08
oh ok
by bazza on 17 August 2009 - 16:08
Big question is, would they pass in other countries, i doubt they would in the U.K.
by Uber Land on 17 August 2009 - 19:08
so it was just passable? not normal, or fast normal elbows?
Would any of you breed a dog with NZ elbows? knowing the issue some german lines have with elbow problems.
I try to stay away from pedigrees with alot of NZ hips, wouldn't it be the same for the elbows?
Would any of you breed a dog with NZ elbows? knowing the issue some german lines have with elbow problems.
I try to stay away from pedigrees with alot of NZ hips, wouldn't it be the same for the elbows?
by Bob-O on 18 August 2009 - 00:08
The definition of "a" 3 noch Zugelassen is "a" 3 still passable. Would such elbows pass the tough O.F.A. evaluation system? I seriously doubt they would. With the O.F.A. there is but one (1) passing score and the failing scores are ED 1, ED 2, and ED 3. To follow; what would these "a" 3 elbows score with the O.F.A.? I can't answer that, but I would guess a failing grade of ED 1 or ED 2.
While the practice of requiring elbow evaluations is quite new to the S.V., their radiologists certainly know what constitutes elbow dysplasie - no doubt there. The best score is of course "a" Normal followed by "a" fast Normal and "a" 3 noch Zugelassen. These are followed by three (3) failing scores as well.
In time the S.V. will incorporate the ZW system with elbow grades but it will take many years of data to do so. How long - I cannot say; but I think it would have to cover at least four (4) generations at a bare minimum, and ten (10) generations may be more realistic. The big danger of any level of elbow dysplasie is the fact that the inheritance rate for dysplastic elbows is slightly higher than that for dysplastic hips. When one takes into account the fact that there have been thousands of GSD's whose elbows were not evaluated it becomes a bit scary.
I say none of these things to criticize the S.V.! They finally stepped to the challenge and did something about the levels of elbow dysplasie in the GSD breed. Are their current standards "too loose"? I certainly can't say, but I would accept nothing less than "a" Normal when it came to an elbow evaluation.
Best Regards,
Bob-O
While the practice of requiring elbow evaluations is quite new to the S.V., their radiologists certainly know what constitutes elbow dysplasie - no doubt there. The best score is of course "a" Normal followed by "a" fast Normal and "a" 3 noch Zugelassen. These are followed by three (3) failing scores as well.
In time the S.V. will incorporate the ZW system with elbow grades but it will take many years of data to do so. How long - I cannot say; but I think it would have to cover at least four (4) generations at a bare minimum, and ten (10) generations may be more realistic. The big danger of any level of elbow dysplasie is the fact that the inheritance rate for dysplastic elbows is slightly higher than that for dysplastic hips. When one takes into account the fact that there have been thousands of GSD's whose elbows were not evaluated it becomes a bit scary.
I say none of these things to criticize the S.V.! They finally stepped to the challenge and did something about the levels of elbow dysplasie in the GSD breed. Are their current standards "too loose"? I certainly can't say, but I would accept nothing less than "a" Normal when it came to an elbow evaluation.
Best Regards,
Bob-O
by bea teifke on 18 August 2009 - 02:08
breed to A1 hips/ elbows if possible.
by crhuerta on 18 August 2009 - 03:08
Then I must stand alone......I would breed to either NZ hips or NZ elbows.
Again......taking the "entire" package into consideration, ie....parents, siblings, bloodlines..etc.
A breeder MUST know as much about the pedigrees as possible.
If a dog has everything I want.......sound temperment, workability, structure & bloodline......absolutely.
But this is MY choice & opinion,.. I don't criticize others for their beliefs. A person has to do what they feel is best.
Robin
Again......taking the "entire" package into consideration, ie....parents, siblings, bloodlines..etc.
A breeder MUST know as much about the pedigrees as possible.
If a dog has everything I want.......sound temperment, workability, structure & bloodline......absolutely.
But this is MY choice & opinion,.. I don't criticize others for their beliefs. A person has to do what they feel is best.
Robin
by Silbersee on 18 August 2009 - 16:08
No, Robin you do not stand alone.
We feel the same way. The entire package is what counts. The SV comes out with certain screening methods which are on a voluntary basis for the first couple of years or so. First hips, then elbows, and soon it will be spines - they are working on that already. All these doomsayers who complain about certain SV ratings, that it is not enough need to wake up. But I noticed that most of them are not breeders and if they are, they usually do not utilize the SV system anyway. We for our part embrace all SV regulations and have no problem in following any new guidelines which are set forth.
1) When hips were first screened in the early 60s, a lot of dogs all of the sudden fell by the wayside. Dogs which passed were used for breeding. Instead of a ratings system, the SV just used "HD zuerkannt" for the longest time (until the mid 80s on pedigrees). After more research, they started to give out ratings (a-normal, a-fast normal, a-noch zugelassen). If the breeders would have discarded all noch zugelassen dogs from their programs, most modern successful producers would not exist now. Why? Because one of the modern pilars had a-noch zugelassen, Sieger Jeck vom Noricum. I challenge all of you to find a lot of our nowadays top dogs without him in their pedigrees.
Now, the SV further refined the hip screening process by adding the hip score value system (Zuchtwert - ZW). For me, this is more significant than the actual hip grade as it tells me a lot more of the incidence and probability of all related dogs, if the system is used correctly.
2) Elbows are now screened for a dog to pass breeding requirements. Up until a couple of years ago, it was voluntary. Sieger Pakros d'Ulmental has ED-3 (noch zugelassen which translates to "still permissable"). People started remarks that he should have never allowed to be Sieger due to his elbow rating. I see that differently. Look at his contribution to the breed! He is the total package and no dog is perfect. The key is to decide if it is a fitting match to a particular female. In the future it should not happen again that a Sieger either has ED-3 or a-3. It is a question of the system evolving. But at the beginning stages, there is nothing wrong with a dog like Pakros being crowned. The SV gave their breeders an incentative to use him and look at the results. Soon, there should be a mathematical formula anyway to calculate the probability of elbow dysplasia, similar to the ZW.
BTW Robin, our male Onyx has received the rating of ED-3. It was a bit of a disappointment since he was cleared at 5 to 6 months of age with prelim. x-rays but we can live with that. We still could have sold him in Europe and had significant offers in Germany and also Eastern Europe. But we wanted him for our breeding program. I asked one of the biggest workingline breeders in Germany (Salztalblick) if he would use Onyx as a stud if he remained in Germany, and Willi Müller answered: of course! For our own peace of mind, we will re-xray him this fall, when he turns two. Plus, we x-rayed his mother and she received ED-normal from the SV at 5 and a half years of age, and so did sister Olympia. As to others using him: We do not offer him for public stud anyway, too much trouble for very little rewards. We have made some bad experiences in the past about housing strange females and picking them up or delivering them to the airport. So, we decided to not do that again. If friends or people we know in the dog world wish to use him, that is different and they are more than welcome, but not just anybody. He also might go back to Germany for a while in a year or so, depending on space at his co-owner's house.
Chris
We feel the same way. The entire package is what counts. The SV comes out with certain screening methods which are on a voluntary basis for the first couple of years or so. First hips, then elbows, and soon it will be spines - they are working on that already. All these doomsayers who complain about certain SV ratings, that it is not enough need to wake up. But I noticed that most of them are not breeders and if they are, they usually do not utilize the SV system anyway. We for our part embrace all SV regulations and have no problem in following any new guidelines which are set forth.
1) When hips were first screened in the early 60s, a lot of dogs all of the sudden fell by the wayside. Dogs which passed were used for breeding. Instead of a ratings system, the SV just used "HD zuerkannt" for the longest time (until the mid 80s on pedigrees). After more research, they started to give out ratings (a-normal, a-fast normal, a-noch zugelassen). If the breeders would have discarded all noch zugelassen dogs from their programs, most modern successful producers would not exist now. Why? Because one of the modern pilars had a-noch zugelassen, Sieger Jeck vom Noricum. I challenge all of you to find a lot of our nowadays top dogs without him in their pedigrees.
Now, the SV further refined the hip screening process by adding the hip score value system (Zuchtwert - ZW). For me, this is more significant than the actual hip grade as it tells me a lot more of the incidence and probability of all related dogs, if the system is used correctly.
2) Elbows are now screened for a dog to pass breeding requirements. Up until a couple of years ago, it was voluntary. Sieger Pakros d'Ulmental has ED-3 (noch zugelassen which translates to "still permissable"). People started remarks that he should have never allowed to be Sieger due to his elbow rating. I see that differently. Look at his contribution to the breed! He is the total package and no dog is perfect. The key is to decide if it is a fitting match to a particular female. In the future it should not happen again that a Sieger either has ED-3 or a-3. It is a question of the system evolving. But at the beginning stages, there is nothing wrong with a dog like Pakros being crowned. The SV gave their breeders an incentative to use him and look at the results. Soon, there should be a mathematical formula anyway to calculate the probability of elbow dysplasia, similar to the ZW.
BTW Robin, our male Onyx has received the rating of ED-3. It was a bit of a disappointment since he was cleared at 5 to 6 months of age with prelim. x-rays but we can live with that. We still could have sold him in Europe and had significant offers in Germany and also Eastern Europe. But we wanted him for our breeding program. I asked one of the biggest workingline breeders in Germany (Salztalblick) if he would use Onyx as a stud if he remained in Germany, and Willi Müller answered: of course! For our own peace of mind, we will re-xray him this fall, when he turns two. Plus, we x-rayed his mother and she received ED-normal from the SV at 5 and a half years of age, and so did sister Olympia. As to others using him: We do not offer him for public stud anyway, too much trouble for very little rewards. We have made some bad experiences in the past about housing strange females and picking them up or delivering them to the airport. So, we decided to not do that again. If friends or people we know in the dog world wish to use him, that is different and they are more than welcome, but not just anybody. He also might go back to Germany for a while in a year or so, depending on space at his co-owner's house.
Chris
by Dana on 19 August 2009 - 17:08
Score of INTERNATIONAL ELBOW WORKING GROUP (IEW) SV
Free Normal = a
Fast normal = b
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Grade 1 Noch zugelassen = c
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Grade 2 not acceptable for breeding
Grade 3 not acceptable for breeding
Elbows in Germany (SV) are assesed by Dr. W. Telhelm University of Giessen.
Dr. Telhem is considered to be very strict.
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