KC Recognised Colours (Liver) - Page 7

well, I'll just leave this last comment on this thread:

I would much rather have/breed a color fault LONG before I had/bred temperment/character faults.  a herding breed should not be aggressive towards other dogs/animals.  kind of defeats the purpose of a herding dog.

Wow...... was lead here from the Color genetics thread. Just wondering what anyone thinks of the pedigree behind the liver I picked up at the end of May of this year? I'm sure you will tear him to pieces but I'm curious anyhow. LOL The photo I quickly put up there when I got him registered in my name was taken the day we were driving him home from meeting the breeder and stopped at a rest area. It was shortly before I had a heart attack so I have not had the chance to get a stacked photo of him for his pedigree page yet but need to do so.

Before anyone has a fit I have been slowly choosing dogs over the past 3 years (a couple don't show up under my kennel name and I have no idea why, still trying to figure out this Pedigree database website) one is a black\red female who do not carry for any dilutions at all but I chose due to her stunning conformation (all west german showlines) wicked intelligence, working abilitiy, flawless temperament, strong nerves, and so much more. She is 3 and a half years old now.

We have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on dogs, kennels, dog houses, feed, vaccinations, parasite control, etc, etc etc  over the past 3 years and have yet to produce a litter. Why? Because I choose not to be a BYB. I could have produced sub-standard litters long ago using neighboring studs, etc. but won't do so.

Hans, Liver is NOT a dilution. Sigh..... Many people mistakenly refer to it as such but genetically speaking it is NOT. The b gene in duplicate BLOCKS the formation of any black pigment. The d gene in duplicate dilutes any black pigment. A dog that is bb dd would be an Isabella. Genetically speaking they are a diluted liver.

You don't happen to know Les "The Kiwi" Pauling do you? You are like his doppelganger on this board. LOL Les and I have went round and round on yahoogroup e-groups before in the past and finally came to have a respect for each other. Not that he likes my view of things but he sees I am not out producing puppies after all these years and I bow to his immense knowledge in the GSD breed and have learned tons from him.

At any rate, too tired this morning to even BEGIN to answer the many posts on this thread that made my eyes roll up in the back of my head. LOL I agreed with a lot of what was said though and you might be surprised at who it was and what it was I agreed with. However there is a lot of misinformation and misinterpertation going on in this thread as well regarding blues and livers. Something I have been busily fighting since 1999. However my recent health problems have prevented me from doing much of that lately.

Here is the pedigree link I promised:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/676978.html

My dog was not just a SHOCK to the breeder but the only one of the livers she allowed to let go with full registration because of who I am. "The BlueDog Lady" to be exact. Known to have been fighting for the equality of blues and livers within the GSD breed since 1999. Known to have only produced one litter in 2001 out of sheer ignorance. 2001 was a long time ago. I've learned a LOT since then. The breeder will NOT be doing a repeat breeding by the way. EVER.

Ah, forgot to say my profile photo shows the liver I picked up yesterday. Have been in love with him since seeing his puppy photos in 2007. His lines hail back to the same kennels in Germany that my beloved Renegade come from. He has the same head. (anyone who has been to my BlueDogs site will see the site is dedicated to Renegade, my first blue) I stayed at the breeders for 4 months in 2008 and I bonded with that dog very closely. She is reducing her kennel. She offered him to me knowing how attached I am to him. He is finally home....

~Darlene~

Bluedogs;
No I do not know Les Pauling. You are saying that he was saying same thing as I do> Maybe it is because the truth is the truth and thus many people will say it. I know many breeders in Germany and in Czech who will say the same thing. SV standard say the same thing. There are thousands of people saying the same thing.
You are talking about rolling eyes....... 
As I said before to me it is not important  if it is dilution or blocking . I have found scientific literature claiming both. Newer less here is a statement I fight for: " Loss of pigmentation is a first sign of degeneration."
The dog which you are proudly exposing here is a dog which  I am sure you love and is wonderful companion and all that, and in no way I wish to insult this dog and your relationsip with it,  but as far as a GSD  specimen goes it is an epitome of loss of pigmentation and thus of the  degeneration. Some of the traits on this dog are actually disqualifying traits of GSD.
Liver colored nose, "colorless" eyes, pink gums, pink lips(!) and probably  lightly colored toe nails. This dog no matter how wonderful companion it is must be disqualified from any serious GSD breeding program.
 I would suggest to you that if you want to breed livers and blue go for it, I guess nobody is going to convince you otherwise, but at least create yourself different breed name and please do  not introduce this genetic time bomb into GSD breed. There are already plenty problems there.
To the rest of you who haphazardly stumbled on this particular post, I implore you,  please read the rest of my posts on this thread.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com 

genetic time bomb?

He has the same genetics as he normal color siblings and parents!

It is just a color!

von issk
yes people do interpret the breed standard differently.  your mentor obviously does, and her breeding practices of breeding father to daughter and back again to granddaughter is questionable.  same with the dogs being aggressive at UKC shows and either being banned, or the other show participates asking if those are the same nasty dogs which were shown last year.  again, I would rather have a color fault than a temperment fault anyday.

her shit dogs won its class and also took group 1.  and another of her shit dogs placed before yours last year at another show.  guess the judges have a different idea of shit dog than you.

and if you were soo worried about breeding to the standard, why breed to a blue dog in the first place? you did breed your male to a blue didn't you?

I do reccommend your dogs breeder, but not cause he bred your dog! 

as for the inbreeding, you consider this: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/609950.html
bettering the breed?

not riding your ass, but before you spout off about breed standard, make sure you are breeding according to it.

If these colors were linked to any health problem (besides the easily recognized CDA in some lines) I would NEVER consider working with them.  but so far, I have not found any evidence that these colors are linked to any problem in our breed.

the first sign of problems (whether health or temperment) out of my dogs, I will have them fixed and placed into pet homes.

 and the breed standard does state a black nose and pigment are required, but the standard has been re written many times before due to politics and what the popular breeders wanted.  what better way to exclude blue and liver dogs from being shown than to demand all dogs shown have black noses?  because blue and liver dogs, no matter how dark, will never have a black nose. 

we see examples of this even today." reputable" breeders bashed anyone working with and breeding longhairs in the past, now the dogs are being allowed to show again, and the standard has been changed AGAIN, to allow for longhairs with an undercoat.  so because it was changed, they are now ok? what was the arguement for excluding longhairs?  I always heard it was due to the coat being soft and not as water resistant than a standard coat,  but they are ok now? How about the showline breeders pushing for a upper height limit change to allow for their oversized blk/red males?

I am tired of being one of the few who defends these colors on this board.  the rest of the people working with them either don't care what you guys think, or are too afraid to stand up to ya'll because of all the abuse and harrassment they receive.  just for breeding a color.

this is taken from the website Prager keeps posting as proof of the degenerative genetic timebombs that blues and livers are.  I might not be reading this correctly, but so far, all I see them mention is the CDA and follicle disease.  no other problems, the CDA can be tested for, and easily bred away from.  and the website states the follicle disease is extremely rare.
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DILUTES

The main problem associated with dogs with the dilute gene (dd) is known as Colour Dilution Alopecia. It is also known to occur in mice, and causes hair loss and skin problems. A dog with this disorder will typically appear "mangy" and have partial hair loss. It is usually reported from blue dogs, particularly Dobermanns, but presumably it affects isabella dogs too (diluted livers).


This blue German Pinscher appears to have mild alopecia. Its coat is dull rather than having a healthy shine, and it seems thin and patchy.

CDA is recessive. That means that both parents must be carriers in order to pass it on, and only homozygous puppies will have it (they need two copies of the gene which causes it). It's a bit like Down's syndrome in humans - children with it are born to two parents who carry the gene. Most people carry it without knowing it, which is why the syndrome appears to occur randomly, but if one child is born with it, it is possible (but not certain) that any other children the couple has will also have it.
Any colour can carry CDA or be homozygous for it, but only blues and isabellas will have symptoms. There are now tests available for the CDA gene, which will hopefully help breeders to avoid breeding carriers.

The same problem can also occur (albeit rarely) on black or liver dogs, and is known as Black Hair Follicular Dysplasia. It affects black/liver hairs only, leaving all other hairs as normal. Because this condition is so rare, it often goes undiagnosed. I used to know a Jack Russell Terrier mix who was white except for a black patch on his back, which was hairless. His condition puzzled a whole string of vets and skin specialists, who suggested various types of mange and allergies, and he was never properly diagnosed as having Black Hair Follicular Dysplasia. Unfortunately for dogs with genetic hair loss conditions, there is no cure.

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