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by RLHAR on 21 July 2011 - 16:07
VM,
Exactly. What we see from 'behind' the dog and what the helper experiences on the sleeve are vastly different. My female was my first SchH dog and I thought she was awesome. She would bark intensely at the helper, she would explode into action from the escape and she was a rocket down the field for the courage test but she had no power. Her grips were/are very weak, soft and express conflict when she is on the sleeve, conflict from the fact that while in 'prey' she looks awesome but when pressured she is uncertain.
This is a training failure on *my* part and feeds into the fact that you're going to screw up your first dog. However from the outside she looks fantastic and I could never understand why helpers would frown when they worked her until I got my male. I was playing with both of them on a big bite role, so I had it in my hands and could feel them taking bites on it and until I *felt* those bites and looked into their eyes as they played/fought with me, I didn't have even an inkling of an understanding of what the helper experiences through the sleeve.
After that I began to really study what was going on in a dog's grip on the sleeve, trying to better understand why my beloved female just wasn't ever going to be able to 'bring power' onto the field. It's very, very subtle but there if you look closely.
Exactly. What we see from 'behind' the dog and what the helper experiences on the sleeve are vastly different. My female was my first SchH dog and I thought she was awesome. She would bark intensely at the helper, she would explode into action from the escape and she was a rocket down the field for the courage test but she had no power. Her grips were/are very weak, soft and express conflict when she is on the sleeve, conflict from the fact that while in 'prey' she looks awesome but when pressured she is uncertain.
This is a training failure on *my* part and feeds into the fact that you're going to screw up your first dog. However from the outside she looks fantastic and I could never understand why helpers would frown when they worked her until I got my male. I was playing with both of them on a big bite role, so I had it in my hands and could feel them taking bites on it and until I *felt* those bites and looked into their eyes as they played/fought with me, I didn't have even an inkling of an understanding of what the helper experiences through the sleeve.
After that I began to really study what was going on in a dog's grip on the sleeve, trying to better understand why my beloved female just wasn't ever going to be able to 'bring power' onto the field. It's very, very subtle but there if you look closely.
by Ruger1 on 21 July 2011 - 18:07
brynjulf...
I have enjoyed your input...I am also pleased with the way the thread is going..: )
VM...
I think you have a point with some of the show lines being exaggerated, but are there any show lines that you think have nice comformation??....Just curious??...I did not know that Jeff was a decoy...I would like to hear the opinions from Jim and others who
have experience too...: )
RS...It has been my opinion that folks, even non GSD folks prefer the looks of a black/red show line...I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder....I think as far as I am concerned this is about degrees of beauty....: )
RLHAR...You dog is handsome IMO...Your female is making that look easy...Nice pics..: )
I have enjoyed your input...I am also pleased with the way the thread is going..: )
VM...
I think you have a point with some of the show lines being exaggerated, but are there any show lines that you think have nice comformation??....Just curious??...I did not know that Jeff was a decoy...I would like to hear the opinions from Jim and others who
have experience too...: )
RS...It has been my opinion that folks, even non GSD folks prefer the looks of a black/red show line...I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder....I think as far as I am concerned this is about degrees of beauty....: )
RLHAR...You dog is handsome IMO...Your female is making that look easy...Nice pics..: )
by RLHAR on 21 July 2011 - 19:07
Well yes she is making it look easy because she has the correct conformation for it. However she does not and will never have the 'flying gait' of a showline dog because she doesn't have the correct conformation for that.
So when you ask for type and temperment you're kinda hitting the hot button topic of discussion between Showline and Workingline folks.
What is correct conformation type?
The showline 'gaiting' allows for a dog that should, in theory, be able to move around a herd of sheep/goat/whatever all day at a comfortable pace.
Wait, you're a horse person maybe this will help. Saddle seat horses, the pacers, the walkers the horses that were specifically bred to have a flowing fluid gait that was comfortable to sit too and which the horse could carry for miles of transporting the rider from town to town. Those horses were bred with that purpose in mind and their gait was desired for that. The same with the straight shouldered Egyptian Arabian, bred for a gait and conformation that allows the horse to travel long, flat distances for long periods of time comfortable for horse and rider.
Then you've got your quarter horse, bred tight coupled and quick to be able to cut cattle, jump ditches, have bursts of quick speed to catch cattle, etc. Or you've got your Thoroughbred, with the sloped shoulder and 'down hill' build to run fast, jump high, etc.
They're all 'horses' but they have been bred for different purposes and the conformation excellence in each 'breed' if you will is different because what is required of them is different.
You wouldn't expect a Tennessee Walker to go out and cut cows and in the same vein you wouldn't ask a Quarter Horse to go into the ring and 'gait' smoothly. They're each bred to different conformation needs.
Same basic idea between showline and working line.
So when you ask for type and temperment you're kinda hitting the hot button topic of discussion between Showline and Workingline folks.
What is correct conformation type?
The showline 'gaiting' allows for a dog that should, in theory, be able to move around a herd of sheep/goat/whatever all day at a comfortable pace.
Wait, you're a horse person maybe this will help. Saddle seat horses, the pacers, the walkers the horses that were specifically bred to have a flowing fluid gait that was comfortable to sit too and which the horse could carry for miles of transporting the rider from town to town. Those horses were bred with that purpose in mind and their gait was desired for that. The same with the straight shouldered Egyptian Arabian, bred for a gait and conformation that allows the horse to travel long, flat distances for long periods of time comfortable for horse and rider.
Then you've got your quarter horse, bred tight coupled and quick to be able to cut cattle, jump ditches, have bursts of quick speed to catch cattle, etc. Or you've got your Thoroughbred, with the sloped shoulder and 'down hill' build to run fast, jump high, etc.
They're all 'horses' but they have been bred for different purposes and the conformation excellence in each 'breed' if you will is different because what is required of them is different.
You wouldn't expect a Tennessee Walker to go out and cut cows and in the same vein you wouldn't ask a Quarter Horse to go into the ring and 'gait' smoothly. They're each bred to different conformation needs.
Same basic idea between showline and working line.
by Ruger1 on 21 July 2011 - 19:07
RHLAR...Very nice post...You must be an English major with your nice way of speaking...: )
This is the problem, I have Western and English Pleasure Quarter Horses...Not only do they have nice comformation, balance, proper proportions, but their gaits are to die for...Pleasure Horses are a pleasure to ride. Unlike, Quarter Horses used for cutting or roping they have a smooth and comfortable walk, trot, and canter...Seems to me I can have my cake, and I can eat it too....I want the same in my GSD....
by RLHAR on 21 July 2011 - 19:07
Well that's where there is the biggest line of debate. Is the GSD breed already too fractured that it can not be brought back together to the satisifaction of both sides.
This is a dog who by definition of Universal Seiger would be what you probably mean when you say cake and eat it too.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=439031
But you'll notice, he comes from working lines. He's a V which is about as high as an working line dog is ever going to get in terms of a show rating but is pretty damn impressive. He's also a bi-color/blk and tan, not the pretty black and reds that take the VA spots in Seiger Shows.
This is a dog who by definition of Universal Seiger would be what you probably mean when you say cake and eat it too.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=439031
But you'll notice, he comes from working lines. He's a V which is about as high as an working line dog is ever going to get in terms of a show rating but is pretty damn impressive. He's also a bi-color/blk and tan, not the pretty black and reds that take the VA spots in Seiger Shows.
by Red Sable on 21 July 2011 - 19:07
Alex is a very nice dog.
by RLHAR on 21 July 2011 - 19:07
He is a very nice dog indeed. Have had the pleasure of meeting him and seeing him work.
by desert dog on 21 July 2011 - 19:07
Deana, Prager is in Czech as his mother just passed away.
Hank
Hank
by Ruger1 on 21 July 2011 - 20:07
Oh, my deepest sympathy to Prager and his family....
Thanks you for the post Hank....
RHLAR...I am out the door for a bit, I am anxious to look at the pedigree you posted when I return home...Thanks...
Deanna..: )
by Jeff Oehlsen on 21 July 2011 - 22:07
Quote: Someone said I am not PICKING correct working lines... Umm no I dont get to pick, they are sent to me for training. so nope i dont get to pick. I love working dogs that with every correction swing to rip my arm off. It is awesome! So yup I do like a dog with handler sensitivity. That is not going to change. You can go on and on about how it is just GSD behavior it is correct all that stuff but I am sticking to my guns. That is not nor will it ever be correct GSD temperment. That is the big divide with show and working line people.
It is correct temperament for a GSD to look at someone who is not their owner, and is correcting them. I actually like a dog that flat out would nail you. It is not your dog, you should not be correcting it, and the dog should not be sent off for training. So, yes, you would be absolutely incorrect about the GSD temperament and character.
I have to go to work. I will come back tonight and GET ALL OF YOU ! ! ! ! ! HA HA
It is correct temperament for a GSD to look at someone who is not their owner, and is correcting them. I actually like a dog that flat out would nail you. It is not your dog, you should not be correcting it, and the dog should not be sent off for training. So, yes, you would be absolutely incorrect about the GSD temperament and character.
I have to go to work. I will come back tonight and GET ALL OF YOU ! ! ! ! ! HA HA
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