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by Uber Land on 15 October 2010 - 02:10
people can test their stock for CDA and choose to breed non carriers to non carriers. then no more CDA!
The way you put things, I might as well say, because I have had many blk/red german showlines with HD, then all must have HD. and since my sable girl has Pannus, then I assume all sable dogs will get pannus and go blind before they are 3 yrs old.
The way you put things, I might as well say, because I have had many blk/red german showlines with HD, then all must have HD. and since my sable girl has Pannus, then I assume all sable dogs will get pannus and go blind before they are 3 yrs old.
by Uber Land on 15 October 2010 - 02:10
lets use the same website:
liver: http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/liver.htm no where does it say it causes health problems in these breeds
blue again nothing: http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/dilutes.htm
again, only problem is CDA, which is easily detected and easily removed from a breeding program: http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/problems.htm and the double merle, which does not affect gsd.
liver: http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/liver.htm no where does it say it causes health problems in these breeds
blue again nothing: http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/dilutes.htm
again, only problem is CDA, which is easily detected and easily removed from a breeding program: http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/problems.htm and the double merle, which does not affect gsd.
by Uber Land on 15 October 2010 - 02:10
<<<<<<<<
There are no known medical problems that I am aware of associated with any of the German Shepherd Dog colors. Many of the most important dogs in the breed,including the first registered GSD,carry colors that are considered undesirable by todays written standards for the breed. There are so many undesirable things to try to eliminate when breeding dogs, health,temperment,and soundness problems,that color prejudice seems trival by comparison. There are reputable people selecting for sound,structurally and temperamentally correct animals in all colors of GSD's and there are people who want a good family dog of the color they personally like, regardless of what standard has been written by a breed club.
When white and other colors were deemed undesirable, the knowledge of genetics was in its infancy. White was mistakenly associated with albinism, and dilutions of color were associated with weakness. Dilute colors may not be as pretty to some people, but there are other people who prefer the dilute colors. In some breeds there are problems associated with whites, but these are different genetically from the white German Shepherd Dog. Dilute blues and livers in some breeds have a reputation for skin problems, but whether that is a breed trait in those breeds or merely a bloodline trait in those breeds, I do not know. The scanty data I've had on blue, liver, and white in other breeds seems to indicate that skin problems in blue and liver are at least partly bloodline related, and the health problems linked with white in other breeds is linked to albinism. Being that the white GSD is NOT an albino, but shows the same pigment as other dark pigmented white breeds such as the Samoyed, the white color itself is NOT linked to health problems
>>>>>>>>> taken from Deloris J. Willis Dr. gsd gene's
There are no known medical problems that I am aware of associated with any of the German Shepherd Dog colors. Many of the most important dogs in the breed,including the first registered GSD,carry colors that are considered undesirable by todays written standards for the breed. There are so many undesirable things to try to eliminate when breeding dogs, health,temperment,and soundness problems,that color prejudice seems trival by comparison. There are reputable people selecting for sound,structurally and temperamentally correct animals in all colors of GSD's and there are people who want a good family dog of the color they personally like, regardless of what standard has been written by a breed club.
When white and other colors were deemed undesirable, the knowledge of genetics was in its infancy. White was mistakenly associated with albinism, and dilutions of color were associated with weakness. Dilute colors may not be as pretty to some people, but there are other people who prefer the dilute colors. In some breeds there are problems associated with whites, but these are different genetically from the white German Shepherd Dog. Dilute blues and livers in some breeds have a reputation for skin problems, but whether that is a breed trait in those breeds or merely a bloodline trait in those breeds, I do not know. The scanty data I've had on blue, liver, and white in other breeds seems to indicate that skin problems in blue and liver are at least partly bloodline related, and the health problems linked with white in other breeds is linked to albinism. Being that the white GSD is NOT an albino, but shows the same pigment as other dark pigmented white breeds such as the Samoyed, the white color itself is NOT linked to health problems
>>>>>>>>> taken from Deloris J. Willis Dr. gsd gene's
by Uber Land on 15 October 2010 - 03:10
<<A reminder here that the pairings that produce liver or blue or Izabella or self-white do not of themselves cause health problems in the GSD. In some breeds there are damaging alleles located right next to d on the chromosome, but any health problems found in liver or blue or Izabella or self-white GSDs will be due to the policies of the breeders who ignore the GSD Standard to deliberately produce these “off-colours” – the pool of partners that will produce the colour they fancy is much reduced compared to the total pool of GSDs, and so the temptation is to “forgive” whatever health problem is present in a producer of “that colour”.
When the president of the GSD Club of America wrote (Hadsell, 1972) that white “is physical evidence of genetic ingredients that will lead to degeneration in subsequent generations if not already fully demonstrated in such an individual” he might have been correct – but not for what tends to be called “genetic” reasons, just for “fanatical blindness” reasons.>>
http://www.leabashiba.com/German.Shepherd.Dog.coat.colours.htm
When the president of the GSD Club of America wrote (Hadsell, 1972) that white “is physical evidence of genetic ingredients that will lead to degeneration in subsequent generations if not already fully demonstrated in such an individual” he might have been correct – but not for what tends to be called “genetic” reasons, just for “fanatical blindness” reasons.>>
http://www.leabashiba.com/German.Shepherd.Dog.coat.colours.htm
by jc.carroll on 15 October 2010 - 10:10
"The German Shepherd: A Genetic History" -- I recommend it, the 1992 edition, not the earlier one. Willis isn't a color advocate, nor is he against out-of-standard colors. He stated: “The colour of the GSD is in itself not important and has no effect on the character of the dog or on its fitness for work and should be a secondary consideration for that reason [pg 26]" and advocates that there are more important aspects to the breed than simply color alone.
As for "degeneration" there are more than a few breeds of dogs that soley exist in non-black, or some other recessive form, and that hasn't ruined them. Weimaraners, as mentioned before are dilute+liver, though some are dilute+blue. Vizslas, liver. Novo Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers, liver. Dogue de Bordeaux, liver...
One might not like these breeds or their colors, but to say they're "ruined," and "degenerates," I think that's stretching it a bit.
As for "degeneration" there are more than a few breeds of dogs that soley exist in non-black, or some other recessive form, and that hasn't ruined them. Weimaraners, as mentioned before are dilute+liver, though some are dilute+blue. Vizslas, liver. Novo Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers, liver. Dogue de Bordeaux, liver...
One might not like these breeds or their colors, but to say they're "ruined," and "degenerates," I think that's stretching it a bit.
by Prager on 19 October 2010 - 21:10
people can test their stock for CDA and choose to breed non carriers to non carriers. then no more CDA!
Yes they can . But most will not.
The way you put things, I might as well say, because I have had many blk/red german showlines with HD, then all must have HD. and since my sable girl has Pannus, then I assume all sable dogs will get pannus and go blind before they are 3 yrs old.
No that is not the way I put it. You have gaps in education in logic 101.
There is difference between implication and equation.
Here is an example: my Ford is red car.(Implication). Then according to you all Fords would be red cars.(Equation) . But that is not the truth because it goes only one way. Just because my Ford is red car it does not mean that all my cars are red or that all Fords are red. The statement goes only in one specific way and the other. That is called in logic implication. Thus same way
it is the truth that only dogs with CDA have diluted genes (Implication) and not all dogs with diluted gene have CDA
However it is the truth that dog of any color may have pannus or HD. (Equation)
In Other words my point is that only dogs with degeneration signs of dilution may have CDA. No other dogs have that possibility.
Also I would like to say tat if you start degeneration there are unintended consequences ( as I have said before) because just about no gene controls just one trait!
JC Carroll
Yes they can . But most will not.
The way you put things, I might as well say, because I have had many blk/red german showlines with HD, then all must have HD. and since my sable girl has Pannus, then I assume all sable dogs will get pannus and go blind before they are 3 yrs old.
No that is not the way I put it. You have gaps in education in logic 101.
There is difference between implication and equation.
Here is an example: my Ford is red car.(Implication). Then according to you all Fords would be red cars.(Equation) . But that is not the truth because it goes only one way. Just because my Ford is red car it does not mean that all my cars are red or that all Fords are red. The statement goes only in one specific way and the other. That is called in logic implication. Thus same way
it is the truth that only dogs with CDA have diluted genes (Implication) and not all dogs with diluted gene have CDA
However it is the truth that dog of any color may have pannus or HD. (Equation)
In Other words my point is that only dogs with degeneration signs of dilution may have CDA. No other dogs have that possibility.
Also I would like to say tat if you start degeneration there are unintended consequences ( as I have said before) because just about no gene controls just one trait!
JC Carroll
That also proves wrong totally unscientific statement which you have quoted from the book:
"The German Shepherd: A Genetic History" Since colors do carry problems.
I have mentioned and proved it in former posts and will not walk in circles here.
As far as other breeds goes I do not care that they are bred based on degenerative traits.
If you want to breed degenerative traits into GSD and justify that in your mind then hat is in my eyes and according to the standard of the breed wrong. I for one would not want to have that on my name or consciousness and I will fight against it every step of the way.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 19 October 2010 - 21:10
jc.carroll quoted.
an Shepherd: A Genetic History" -- I recommend it, the 1992 edition, not the earlier one. Willis isn't a color advocate, nor is he against out-of-standard colors. He stated: “The colour of the GSD is in itself not important and has no effect on the character of the dog or on its fitness for work and should be a secondary consideration for that reason [pg 26]" and advocates that there are more important aspects to the breed than simply color alone.
Albino is an ultimate dilution of color = no pigmentation. And there are most definitely problems in albinos,... same as I have documented in my former posts problems with blue, liver and Isabella in dogs and other animals. There were problem in dogs , horses, foxes, chickens, rodents and so on and on and on.
Get a clue.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
an Shepherd: A Genetic History" -- I recommend it, the 1992 edition, not the earlier one. Willis isn't a color advocate, nor is he against out-of-standard colors. He stated: “The colour of the GSD is in itself not important and has no effect on the character of the dog or on its fitness for work and should be a secondary consideration for that reason [pg 26]" and advocates that there are more important aspects to the breed than simply color alone.
Albino is an ultimate dilution of color = no pigmentation. And there are most definitely problems in albinos,... same as I have documented in my former posts problems with blue, liver and Isabella in dogs and other animals. There were problem in dogs , horses, foxes, chickens, rodents and so on and on and on.
Get a clue.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by vonissk on 20 October 2010 - 02:10
Hans I am going to agree with everything you have said here and presented in such an intelligent and NICE way. If I ever have a ?? I cannot get answered anywhere else know you are the man. LOL. Now just a little something I would like to add. One of the things I have a problem with breeding the " off colors" is that 99.9 of them come from either BYB people for the money and the color and accidents. I strongly believe a pedigree is a tool to be used to full advantage. One of the links I looked at above the dog had a very nice working pedigree. Definately the exception to the rule..........but the others you look at there is nothing.........dogs that are not health tested, no titles, dogs no one ever heard of. For generations.......how one can build a breeding program on a dog like that I have no clue. That is where the disservice begins, IMO. The average person sits around and brags on how they have : mighty max: in the 4th generation but what does that mean to you as a person? Do you know mighty max? Do you know anyone who personally knows this dog? Something was said about too much linebreeding and inbreeding--again they are tools to be used. You linebreed and inbreed to develope type and certain traits. You can not base a breeding program on complete outcrosses to develop your own line. Again my take on the whole thing. But you must know the dogs in order to be sucessful. You can't just line and inbreed because that's the closest dog you have access to and expect great results. And when it turns out bad you want to blame it on a tool that was misused.
I am very much against the off colors because the standard is there for a reason.........
I am very much against the off colors because the standard is there for a reason.........
by Uber Land on 20 October 2010 - 03:10
yes the standard is there for a reason, and many dogs today, whether BYB or top show winner, looks anything like the standard.
by vonissk on 20 October 2010 - 18:10
That's true. But A) some people don't read or know there even is a standard--more the BYB variety and B) people interpret it differently. But to know the breed and the standard and to go against it, breeding disqualifying faults purposefully then that is a horse of a different color. And IMO it's wrong and it is a disservice to the breed.
I know you don't like me and that's fine. Who cares. But I have a right to state my opinion because like many other people I truly care about the breed and where it is headed. After 25 yrs in one breed I'm not smart enough to go to another one and have to relearn everything. So basically what I am saying is I'm not getting in a pissing match with you because it's not worthy of my time or energy. You've already said you're going to do what you want and you don't give a rat's ass about who cares or not. To me that just shows your true self--as if I didn't know--and it's really not about the breed or the future of it..................................
I know you don't like me and that's fine. Who cares. But I have a right to state my opinion because like many other people I truly care about the breed and where it is headed. After 25 yrs in one breed I'm not smart enough to go to another one and have to relearn everything. So basically what I am saying is I'm not getting in a pissing match with you because it's not worthy of my time or energy. You've already said you're going to do what you want and you don't give a rat's ass about who cares or not. To me that just shows your true self--as if I didn't know--and it's really not about the breed or the future of it..................................
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