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by Prager on 12 October 2010 - 19:10
JC Carroll.
OK but liver is a dilution and I know it for sure and for you I have found on Internet that it is:) It even has name LIVER DILUTION.
http://aringsburgkennel.blogspot.com/2009/07/gene-dilution-in-german-shepherd-dog.html
here is another one:
http://aringsburgkennel.blogspot.com/2009/07/gene-dilution-in-german-shepherd-dog.html
There are Dilution in GSD Blue Dilution and Liver dilution.....
Liver dogs usually have liver noses. = Sign of dilution.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 12 October 2010 - 20:10
This is degeneration of the line.
Please do not breed liver. I beg you!
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
Picture below is taken from this site.:
http://www.total-german-shepherd.com/German-Shepherd-Coat-Colors.html
by Uber Land on 12 October 2010 - 21:10
Liver dogs are liver, because the black pigment has been blocked.
blue dogs are blue because the black has been diluted.
http://www.chercarkennels.net/whatisablueshepherd.html
here's a blue dutchie, guess she sholdn't have ever been bred either: http://www.chercarkennels.net/rush.html sorry, don't see any loss of pigment in her daughter: http://www.chercarkennels.net/snap.html
these colors have been around and were part of the breeds original make up. same as the white spotting gene ect.
sorry, I don't view the dalmation's spots as a dilution of color. it is a marking or pattern (same as merle), now a liver dalmation you might consider a dilution, I don't, it is a regular dalmation which the black was blocked. also seen blue dalmations.
I don't want someone preaching to me about color being a detriment, when they also defend shiloh shepherds.
by Uber Land on 12 October 2010 - 21:10
if the color was such a detriment and dragged the breed down as a whole, then all these high dollar, well thought of dogs should have been fixed, and never bred from again!!! same with all their progeny! cause we couldn't ever be safe enough!
I am not ashamed of my dogs, and really don't give a Rat's a** if I get beat down on the board for it. I will proudly post pictures of my ugly little "genetically inferior" liver puppies the same as I would my blk/reds.
genetically inferior, for God's sake. same genetics as their blk/red siblings and parents
by Prager on 14 October 2010 - 19:10
Thus since you do not give "a Rat's a** " about someone being polite then I say it differently. You need to learn more about genetics. Liver is a loss of pigmentation which is a first sign of degeneration. Some call it diluting and some call it blocked. In my book blocked would be worse then diluted, but I am not going to play with semantics.
Liver nose is disqualifying fault in GSD; and for a reason . (I do not know or care about Dutch shepherds.)
Then you talk about excellent " well bred" dogs who produce these colors. Well OK you just discovered that there are no perfect dogs. So what? But that does not mean that breeder should pick up the worst pups from the litters and run with them in their breeding program just because parents were great! Again you need to study what is Genotype and what is phenotype. I am saying this since is seems that you are of naive believe that if you bread 2 good dogs together then you will get good litter and vice versa that if you breed two bad dogs together you will get invariable bad dogs out of it. That is not that simple unfortunately. There are usually more then one genes involved in the same trait and same gene may effect different traits. Some genes are dominant and some recessive. Some genes my stay hidden for generations and then pup up if paired with same gene form the other breeding partner.
Please at least look at basic 2 laws of Mendelian genetics in order to grasp the complexity of genetics. And that is below kindergarten as far as genetics goes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance
http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm
I am telling you this as a well meant advice and not to hurt you.Take it or leave it. No need to be angry with me.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
P.S.
from GSD stasdard:
AKC
Color
The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults.........
Disqualifications
Cropped or hanging ears.
Dogs with noses not predominantly black.
Undershot jaw.
Docked tail.
White dogs.
Any dog that attempts to bite the judge.
SV
All dogs, no matter what their color, must have black noses.
Pigment
Permitted colors:Black with reddish brown, brown, tan to light-grey markings. Solid black, grey with darker overcast, black saddle and mask. Inconspicuous small white chest markings, as well as lighter pigment on the inside of the legs is permitted, but not desirable. All dogs, no matter what their color, must have black noses.
Missing mask, light to white markings on the chest and inner leg sides, light toenails, and a red tail tip are signs of faulty pigmentation. Undercoat has a slight grey cast. White is not permissible.
by Uber Land on 15 October 2010 - 00:10
genetics causes health problems and temperment faults, same as germs cause illness and disease. not the pigment of our breeds coat, or of a persons skin color.
by Uber Land on 15 October 2010 - 00:10
standards are changed and reworded all te time. wasn't there debate recently to change the standard to allow for "oversized" dogs, and now we have classes for longhairs! wasn't the debate with longhair was their coat wasn't as water resistant as the normal stock coat, but no they are ok!
whites were removed from the standard because before there were genetic tests, people viewed the white coat as a "weakness" and causing all the breeds health problems (sound familiar about a different subject?) now we have genetics and understanding that gene's cause problems, not the color itself.
times change, and views change. hopefully in my lifetime I might see this change with the liver and blues.
by Prager on 15 October 2010 - 00:10
Do you want to breed dogs with first signs of degeneration?
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 15 October 2010 - 01:10
http://www.egerbil.com/dilution.html
quote from the article:
Effects on Health
The most common observation that breeders have noticed ........is that they seem to suffer from low fertility. In the UK "dd" type gerbils have proved quite difficult to breed. The gerbils themselves tend to be smaller sized, and often pairs haven't bred at all.
Initial breeding with the first generations of the first dilute gerbils showed that mothers tended to have problems in childbirth, not only did the pups often die, but also the mothers often died. These health problems were blamed on too much inbreeding at the University that they came from, this may have been a contributing factor, but it's far more likely the cause was also due to the nature of the dilute mutation itself. ................................ It was also noted that these first blue gerbils died prematurely, sometimes under a year, again this trait seems to have been bred out by outcrossing the initial breeding lines. Also there has been other anecdotal evidence of some European lines being predisposed to seizures.
Here is another quote about dogs with liver colored nose:
It is a color with potential side effects related to health (remember 'blue merle' is another such color for example). The risk for hair loss is increased in dogs with the genotype dd. This hairloss is called color dilution alopecia (CDA) and is known in several dog breeds such as for example the Doberman Pinscher (but alopecia seems to be often among normal colored Doberman Pinschers, too).
Not all diluted dogs will develop CDA for sure. But only diluted dogs get CDA though.
The scientists describe a large variation in proneness for CDA. In some breeds (like Large Munsterlander) all dilutes do have CDA (it's called 'Black hair follicular dysplasia' , in short BHFD, which is clinically very similar to CDA and represents the same disease from a genetic point of view).
http://www.rhodesian-ridgeback-pedigree.org/articles-informations/breeding-and-genetics/color-dilutions-in-rhodesian-ridgebacks.html
The main problem associated with dogs with the dilute gene (dd) is known as Colour Dilution Alopecia. It is also known to occur in mice, and causes hair loss and skin problems. A dog with this disorder will typically appear "mangy" and have partial hair loss. It is usually reported from blue dogs, particularly Dobermanns, but presumably it affects isabella dogs too (diluted livers).
or
The same problem can also occur (albeit rarely) on black or liver dogs, and is known as Black Hair Follicular Dysplasia. It affects black/liver hairs only, leaving all other hairs as normal.
Lack of pigment in particular parts of the inner ear can cause deafness,...
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/problems.htm
It is also known that dogs with les of pigmentation on nose have lesser sense of smell in comparison with dogs with black nose.
Prager Hans.
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Uber Land on 15 October 2010 - 02:10
would not compare studies done on lab animals or rodents the same as in dogs. and the study was more opinion and speculation than proven with facts. "seem to" is not concrete fact in my book.
when I was a small child my mother bred chow chows. it was always said that the blue pups would die within days of being born, they were weaker ect. well, we finally did have a blue pup, and kept him for fear of him being sickly and dieing young. he was just as healthy as his black siblings and had the same life span. this was nearly 30 years ago.
if pigment affected smell so much, why are many hound breeds found in liver and blue? many top bloodhounds can be found in the liver color.
"lack of pigment can cause deafness", maybe pink/albino skin, but not dogs who are blue and liver!
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