Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft - educated opinions please - Page 5

Duke1965
Yes, That is me along with my brother for the last 60 years breeding based on the inbreeding and line breeding with a few selected outcrosses but these outcrosses were not really just that they were a cross into our own but i was very particular to use a pigeon which family was based the same from a Line Bred Inbred Family then after seeing and handling plus the results of course if i thought suitable then a cross was made, But i bought in the Cross only one time and wiped it back out so that it did not dictate our own blood.llines
If it happened that the Cross then did not work out the original and any off spring were eliminated,  But in 20 years of our present family i only bought in two such crosses, both to good effect
So for me the same with Dogs to line Breed, Inbreed to fix the qualities, then if a cross is bought in one from a breeder who handles his breeding the same way as i did, so here we can say that although the Progeny are a Cross they are not a product of a cross which is also come from another cross, it would in fact be a hybrid cross we were making
However even though i have kept dogs for 60 odd years i have never bred a Puppy but seeing until now through all those years i only kept Males it would not have happened, But if i ever do breed from my Dogs providing there Hips etc are Breedable and they get korclassed and good quality titles then that is the policy i would adopt., I only had the one chance to say pick a mate for a Female and i am very sure i was right in the Male i chose to breed my Izzy and her nest mates and her younger bothers and sisters but only time will tell if i am right
As for the Guy you are refering to with Pigeons i do not know where you can get the book but if my memory serves me right you are talking about Professer Alfons Anker, Now deceased some years ago was Hungarian by birth
A very clever man indeed
Steve1

barbnjason,  i hope you were able to gleen something out of these ramblings.  i just have one more thing to say about linebreeding on troll.  on the euro list, bruce refers to certain lines as "lines of proven producers."  in essence, that is the difference between breeding dogs based on individual merit as opposed to breeding on proven bloodlines.  consistency.  predictability.  breeding dogs based on individual merit only, will give you an occasional "flash in the pan" but will not bring any kind of consistency or reliability in future generations. fero/troll have proven beyond doubt that they are a line of proven producers.  not every pup will be a champion, but even so, you will find more consistency throughout.  good luck with your breeding and i hope you are able to produce what you are looking for.  :)
pjp

IIt's been a lovefest so far on the Fero-T-litter Nachbarschaft lines. OK, time to talk about possible weaknesses and how to fix or avoid them, this is after all the pedigree database and we all know that no lines or dogs are perfect. (I have and have had dogs from these lines and I love em but they're not perfect.)

Some of the minuses that have been observed: thin nerves most especially shown as insecurity on different surfaces or grip issues; unbalanced drives tending toward too high prey drives and too low defense drives (said to be from Askia); lack of civil nature (except through Yoschy who are almost always civil said to be from crazy Mona); handler agression and dominance (mainly through Yoschy); can not cap drives (shown through spinning or other displacement behaviors); can not settle in the house; high pitched barks especially from females; dog aggression; and I'm sure others can add more observed issues.

Before anyone starts flaming away, of course the usual disclaimers apply. Not all or not even one of the issues may necessarily appear on an individual dog, dogs are composed of multiple lines, those issues can appear on other lines as well, there are many positive traits which may balance the issues, etc., etc.

Now how to fix them: some of the soultions I've seen are to blend the lines with DDR lines, Tom Leefdalhof lines, to make sure you have both Troll and Timmy (w/c seems to balance the Fero and Askia traits), older lines that have lots of Bernd Lierberg and/or Drigon Furmannshoff.  All these blends ssem to attenuate the existence, degree or level of potential issues.

There's also training. Due to the high prey drives training these lines are easy but too much prey or too early bitework can lock them in prey. Of course YMMV. Comments?

DDR Shep
My New Pup coming in May is Troll + Tom lines, Her Mother is a G.Daughter of Tom van't Leefdahlhof full sister to Como
Her Father is Javir Talka Marda, So an interesting mating, time will tell, we can only hope it is right but as i said before it is what the handler does as well that is mostly never talked about on these threads but a most inportant part, for the dog may not be at fault at all just  poor handling
Steve1

DDR, I heard about the nerve problem four generations ago, when I first started with a Yoschy granddaughter. She was a little spooky because I got her out of an unsocialized, neglected situation (not the man's fault; he broke his neck shortly after getting her). So far, I have seen NO SIGN of weak nerve in progeny, and I keep breeding back on more Fero lines. It's all solid. I have NEVER had one come off a bite. HOWEVER, he was bred to some phenomenal bitches to make on both sides of my pedigree (Cella vom Hainpark and Mona vd Dollenweise) . Obviously, Fero/Troll/Yoschy had to be bred to worthwhile bitches. So maybe with an average bitch, they passed that nerve issue on?

My only problem with the line is that they got bigger (and the girls got more masculine) with every generation. Not what I was after. Can't wait to see how my new puppy turns out. She is 22% Yoschy; so far, she lives for eye contact and for chasing the rag, at only 6 weeks of age. She fears nothing, including the leaf blower aimed right at her. She is a glutton. OH MY, I cannot wait for her to grow up!

Couple years to go yet, but you might appreciate this planned breeding.

3 - 5 Nick
4,4,5 - 5 Yoschy

The male's sire is Nick over Yoschy (Timmy/Troll), linebred Fero, and his dam is linebred Yoshy, 5X on Greif.



The female's sire is linebred Yoschy, through Ellute and Tom van't Leefdaalhof, and her dam is linebred Cordon an Sat.

Yes, I love dogs who look like him, and it seems that wherever I see great dogs, or anyway dogs that suit my taste, GREIF is back there. I wish I knew more about HIM. I mean, look at my boy (sold to Ken Hasimoto)...same type.

vom marischal wrote ";;;Obviously, Fero/Troll/Yoschy had to be bred to worthwhile bitches. ;;;

the quality of the bitches mated to can make or break the name of the stud as a producer

great producers also produce great on lesser quality bitches

if 20 great bitches are bred to a normal male you will also see some great offspring , so maybe the above mentioned males were lucky to breed some great bitches omong the enormous amount of bitches they bred

vom marischal , your dog is 22% yoschi , what about the other 78% , nothing of quality there????

thought i was done here.  hehe.  maybe not.  ;)
i have not observed thin nerves or insecurity on slick surfaces stemming from fero/troll dogs.  that is not to say impossible, but i would be more apt to look elsewhere for the cause of those issues.  (what is the rest of the pedigree?)  however, i have to agree with you on the matter of high prey/lower defense drives.  unfortunately, i think this has become a trend and this also has been discussed at great length.  not just this bloodline, but others as well.  even though we may not consciously be breeding for points, but remain focused on points as a criteria for breeding suitability it will have an impact on what is produced.  let me borrow your disclaimer shield for a second.  generally speaking, hard, serious dogs with high thresholds aren't getting the high points in competition.  they just aren't flashy.  generally speaking, the more prey driven dogs with medium to low thresholds are presenting the preferred picture for schh.  and you know what; i'm okay with that so long as people are honest about what they have and what they are breeding for. 
the fixes you proposed all seem viable to me.  here again we are talking about proven producing lines.  stability.  dogs from lines with a proven history.  a "flash in the pan" dog is not going to have an established history behind it to produce or to compensate with any reliability.
***here, you can have your disclaimer shield back again, but keep it handy.  it may be useful against those who merely want to argue or stir the pot***
pjp