A Lil Pet Peeve of Mine - Page 4

Sam1427,
I expect a lot more from a Police K9 than I do from a sport dog.  I rarely ever work our K9's in prey, unless they are new and just learning.  For the street dogs the training is much more intense and I am definitely not a nice guy in the dogs mind.  We do more suit work and not much sleeve work.  We also incorporate a lot of muzzle training.  The idea is to make the dog believe he is in a "real fight."  There are techniques to impress this on the dog, which I won't mention here.  The K9's have a very serious job to do and our job in training is to prepare them for that.  I also teach Defensive tactics to our academy classes, the bite work for the K9's is similar to the old "red man" or the "FIST" suit that we use now.  The recruits know they are not really meeting a bad guy in the FIST suit until the scenario starts.  Then they believe they are in a real fight and must fight to win.  Similar for the dogs. 

All of our dogs have to perform in a similar fashion and we can't use the training to cover up flaws which can be done in sport training.  We try to exploit the weakness and then work on correcting it.  Every dog has some weakness at one time or another and I'd rather find out in training then on the street. 

For the sport dogs, it is more of a balance between prey and defense.  Each dog is worked differently to bring out the best in the dog.  A lot of work is put into full and hard grips.  For the K9's full is a luxury and we want hard, really hard.  Naturally, we prefer full and hard, but will settle for hard for the K9's.  We also do not have a routine we use for the K9's as you do in sport.  Our training revolves around different settings that challenge the dog.  It may be slick floors, inside cars, water, boats, woods etc.  What ever we can think or has happened somewhere to a different K9 Officer.  

We do not teach the K9's a hold and bark, it's more of a find and bite.  So we work a lot with passive decoys, who may or may not explode when the dog engages.  The main difference is the attitude of the decoy, being a really bad guy and conveying that to the dog and the pressure and environments we train in.

Jim 

Thanks, Jim. That explains it a bit more.  I've seen some of the full bite suit work and a K9 take down of a fleeing decoy.  I could tell the dog was in defense; that was one serious and well trained GSD.  His handler was rightly very proud of him.

Sam

Sam,
I should clarify one point, we do teach the dogs that a fleeing felon or anyone moving fast is prey.  That is for sport dogs and K9's.  From Prey comes speed, when the dog takes the guy down or makes contact it then switches to defense.  But any movement, even straight on movement, directly at the dog is taught as prey.  Just as the decoy runnng away is prey, until caught.

Jim

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking that the takedown and keeping the decoy on the ground until the handler got there was defense. Chasing is always prey, isn't it? That's what I learned but in sport of course.

Sam

How about Abandoning the Sport side of Shepherds and just concentrating on the breed to be protective Dogs only to you humans, Not me i do not want or need my dogs to protect me i protect them, But thats another story
So we just use Dogs for Police work and for humans to train them for protecting the people and property
Now should this happen you will get people training these Dogs to do this job of work, People who do not know what they are doing but doing it only to make a quick dollar
What will come out after a time is this poorly trained dogs becoming biters, and it will happen then,
Will you guys will be up in arms when the authorities brand the German Shepherd Dog as dangerous just like they have the Pit bulls etc,
Tell me how is it that you people who are continually telling the rest of the world that you are a free nation to do as you want to in effect,
Why then  do you then need a Dog to protect you, No where in the UK or over here in Belgium will you ever here that mentioned and they do not use dogs to protect the families over here and before some wag says the crime rate is as high or higher they still do not need to be protected in the ways you condsider neccessary
Yet another thing you are not allowed in many cases even to keep Dogs in  apartments or even house them outdoors,  i have never heard of a ban on keeping dogs over here, in the house or outside the house so how free are you people, Your Airports are very nearly impossible to get into even for a vist to the country, yet all i here is free America , It really makes me wonder sometimes when i read these threads
Is it so bad there that you need a Dog to protect you, you can carry a Gun or Knife yet even that is not enough you need a Dog as well.
Yet the Law over here says i cannot carry a Gun,Knives are not allowed, not that i feel the need to carry etheir anyway, and i do not need a Dog to protect me so who is better off
This post is not meant to be funny, but i fail to understand the ways of living in the USA, it seems bizzare to me
Steve1

Steve, it depends on "where" you live in the U.S.  Overall, we do have a high crime rate.  Residents of a large metropolitan area, of course, experience more crime than those who live in the country or less densely populated areas.   In Washington, DC, for instance, many homes have iron bars on the windows that are low to the ground.   High speed rail systems -- while a blessing to commuters -- also enables a lot of crime into the suburbs of major cities. 

I bought my GSD to provide a "warning" and protection -- sound/visual and physical protection to his limits -- in order to buy me enough time to call the Police.   Thankfully, the Police are good about car patrols through my neighborhood.   One of my sons lives about 15 minutes drive from my house.  A few months back, the Police were calling homes in his neighborhood with an "automated message" to be aware/vigilant about daytime break-ins, as they were on the increase in his area.

Some Insurance Companies already consider the German Shepherd as high-risk; depending on the Company, some may not sell to a homeowner, or may drop the homeowners policy if they know or later discover there is a GSD.

As far as our Airports --  that has all come about since 9-11.  Those who wish to harm the United States are constantly "probing our Security" in order to find weaknesses -- thus the "underwear" bomber who was able to breach security at Christmas.  

Steve,
All over the world for thousands of years people have used dogs for various things, one being "watch dogs" or guard dogs or as protection or an enhancement to a security system.  This thread was not bashing SchH or sport dogs, as I love the sport of SchH.  I think the OP was commenting on people selling SchH trained dogs as PPD's.  Many of these dogs that are sold to the US as a PPD come from Europe.  It is like any other sales, if there is a need someone will find a way to supply that need.  

My posts were directed at the differences in training working K9's vs sport dogs.  Police K9's serve a wonderful and very valuable function, not just in the US but worldwide.  Sport dogs and dog sports also serve a different but valuable function as well for their owners.  Just as any pets does.   I do SchH every weekend with friends, I do Obedience with my K9 and decoy for friends.  I also help my friends with tracking.  I really enjoy SchH and have since the early 90's. 

Regarding the US, it is a wonderful place to live.  You are welcome to come over and visit and I will show you around.  It is really very beautiful here with lots to do.  However, like any country we have our share of crime which has worsened in our current economic times.  Crime here is a reality depending where you live; it is better or worse, like most places.  From where I live which is a very nice development with deer and lots of wildlife and very safe;  we can drive a short distance and be in the country and all farms, we can also be in some very high crime areas in a short drive as well.  I wouldn't drive through some of those areas with out a gun.  Because of my profession I can spot the unsavory characters from quite a distance. I can recognize the predators from the prey in the city immediately.   Crime is everywhere, you have it in Belgium, Germany, England and the rest of the world.  Here we can take some measures to protect ourselves, and many do.  I see the worst that people have to offer on a daily basis and most of the city I live in is very safe.  You have to know where to go find the crime or the type of crime you are looking for.  I know where to go and when working I spend most of my time in those areas.  Off duty, you will not find me there.  At least not with out a gun.  Please don't misconstrue this thread, the US is a wonderful place to live.  I have traveled across the entire country and have been in every state and just about every major city, some many times over the years.  I have also been to Germany, Switzerland, Ireland, and many places in the Caribbean, I will never live any where else but in the US.  I have enjoyed the places I've been to, but I like it here the best.  Even with our current set of problems.  I plan on going to Italy and Germany again soon, it will be a nice visit. 

Don't mistake the antics of a few disgruntled Americans on the PDB to speak for everyone.  Overall, it is a safe, wonderful place to live.

Jim

Jim
I know what the OP was talking about, regards ScH Dogs and PPDs, and yes, i guess that is done, but if the right questions are not asked up front then some will be caught. That is not what i am talking about. What i am saying is that many people on here expect there Dogs to protect them and there family, and in plain English it means just that
What does Protection mean in your Guys terminology, for the way some are saying  it means if say a Burglar comes into the house then they will expect the Dog to stop the Burglar forthwith, so that means the Dog puts its life on the line for the Humans in the House that is the way i read what Protection means to people in the USA, That to me is wrong
To me a Protection Dog is one who gives a warning of approaching problems i.e someone trying to break into my house
I would not expect my Dogs to give there lives possibly for me when i am standing in the same room, But this is how i read into the posts of Guys living in the USA for they say they want a Dog to Protect them and what i have said is exactly what protection means unless stated otherwise which it has never been throughout any thread reading of that subject
And to be honest i find it very distasteful, that people who love Dogs should be getting them for that Purpose
If anyone wants a such a Dog which patrols property to keep intruders at bay Those Dogs will Attack But they are Trained for that job and it does not need to be a german shepherd dog, an ordinary G.S Dog is not trained to do that,  it is part of a family, i am not saying some will not have a go but it is unfair to expect a normal house Dog to go in whist the Owner stands back to be Protected by it, and none have said otherwise they say Protection Dogs and that means what i have outlined above they expect the dog to phiscally protect them from harm by intruders
As regards the USA i have no doubt that it is a very nice country to live in, Going by the terrain and the changes throughout different parts it is beautiful, And the Normal living people are no different than anywhere else in the world
I live in Belgium for a reason But i miss the diverse countryside of the UK to me there is no where more beautiful certainly from where i moved from, but i moved for a reason and that i must try and do
I find it frustrating when Immigrants can get into a country, Yet, me a normal living person has to go through so much hassle just to vist for a weekend or so, A Visa plus many personal questions which are irrelevant, and who is to know if they are the truth anyway, That is what i do not like I have nothing to hide but i find it wrong, but if not answered then you do not get in
Plus if you do it will be like someone is watching every move you make from the time you land at the first Airport, The Visa How long are you Staying , the Addess of where you are staying, Why are you here, How long are you hear for, What time and day do you leave the country,, what is your flight number out of the Country, and so forth and you have not yet reached  where you want to go
and then they will probably say to you 'Enjoy your stay'
Steve1

Steve,
I agree with you completely.  There is a difference here in regards to dogs, just to clarify.  What most people really need is a "watch dog" a dog that barks at sounds it hears outside.  Usually, a small dog is good for this, or a slightly insecure dog who views everything as a threat.  They are like alarm dogs, all bark no bite.  That is what most people should have, and that is really all the deterrent most people need.  Sad fact is that most people think their GSD will protect them from a bad guy or intruder.  Everyone who owns dogs has a story about how their dog saved them.  The reality is maybe 1 in 1000 would be worth anything against a determined attacker who wasn't afraid of the dog. 

My dogs are my pets first and foremost.  I do not count on them for my personal safety.  I expect them to let me know if some one is coming in my door or window.  All I want is a few seconds warning to wake up and get my bearings, I'll handle the rest.  Now, Boomer my Police Dog I expect a little more.  But still, I don't want or expect him to fight my battles for me.  Even when we are working on the street, I don't expect my dog to fight my battles.  I'm the cop and I have a job to do.  He is another tool in my tool box and if deploying him means he is going to get hurt then he goes back in the car.  If I need to arrest someone who is willing to fight me and my dog or is armed I will put the dog away and do what I need to do to resolve the situation.  I realize the limitations of the dog and how to effectively utilize the dog.  Now, if someone runs I may send the dog, he's a whole lot faster than me.  But we are in the fight together, he is there to assist me and I am there to keep us both safe.  Neither of us need to get hurt at work, not for what they pay me anyway.  Like you, I have a martial arts background and did some full contact fighting in my younger years.  One thing I learned is that there is always someone bigger and tougher.   If I tell someone to put their hands behind their back because they are under arrest the only thing I expect to hear is "Yes Sir."  Any resistance else is met with a swift violent reaction designed to gain immediate compliance.  It's a crazy world and I'm not out to play around or sweet talk with bad guys. 

Traveling here is pretty easy, my friend from Germany is coming soon to train for several weeks.  He never has a problem, you should visit.

Jim

Slamdunc beat me to it *laughs* yes, a watchdog is what most people need, but they think a manstopper is what they want.

My grandmother lives on a farm in the country, and has a little old collie x GSD that is too chubby and arthritic to stop anything. Yet she still has her big-dog bark, which gives Grandma enough time to get the gun if something (human or animal) comes prowling around at night.

She also recently had a security system installed on suggestion of the family, but that's beside the point. A barking dog and her gun is what she's most comfortable with.

I'm military and live with two of my GSDs, and a Jack Russell. My dogs, including the JRT have each have some level of Schutzhund training, but they've all been trained to silent-bark, including the JRT. They're pets, but I'm sure the visible deterrant of a GSD or two glaring out the windows at a potential threat would stop most would-be thugs, and have them looking for a more dog-free residence.

I've never felt inclined to have my dogs protect me. I consider, since they're sport-dogs, aka pets, it's my job to protect them *hehe* I know when something bothers them though because, while they don't bark aside from a very soft "whuff whuff" if they're truly bothered by something outside I hear a deep-throated growl... and that's enough to get me on the alert. I don't need or want a manstopper, but I like a dog that can let me know (quietly!) that something might be amiss.



Like that saying goes:
To heck with dog, beware of Owner!