WoW.... just wow

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by Blitzen on 29 September 2011 - 03:09

This is the link to the entire Brackett article.

http://www.nylana.org/RRACI/brackett.htm

by GSDPACK on 29 September 2011 - 03:09

Still this is inbreeding... kinda heavy duty one also. People disagree with hans accidentaly letting brother and sister mate but this one is OK? this is just funny!

Siantha let it be, this is not worth anybodu's time. Nobody is perfect and people want different things, let them have those things.

by vonissk on 29 September 2011 - 05:09

Siantha. let me tell you something. You are like some others I know on this board who post things they either have no clue about or know very little about and then when you are challanged you try to make yourself " all that" and call them names. First of all I am not an ass. And secondly if you think I am going to sit here and bash my friend, you're very very wrong. I was sitting here drinking my iced tea this morning and having a smoke--which is my treat after working with the dogs. I have a certain routine I do on the computer and this db is one of them. I've been waiting for someone to pull up one of her pedigrees and start all this. And Woohoo this was the morning. So I'm sitting here doing what I normally do, not bothering anybody and YOU my dear are the one that started it. And as I said in a different post I am very loyal to my REAL friends. You placed it here--you said " I hate to be mean but". That says it all. You had no intentions of having any kind of discussion--you put it here to rally people to bash this person. Guess you never figured on lil ole noname vonissk actually knowing this terrible person and being friends with her AND knowing the dogs. So I'm supposed to let you guys bash away, continue with my tea and ciggarette and act like nothing is going on. I don't think so. And I got a lot secret for you about the English language--when you start a sentence about something you're not and then the next work is BUT that tells me that's exactly what you meant. I'm not a racist BUT, I'm not gay BUT, not trying to be mean BUT......it's exactly what you meant to be and then try to blame me for jumping on you and being an ass.
Let's do this. I'm gonna give you a break because I am open minded and anytime something makes half assed sense I'll listen. Why other than your opinion is inbreeding and linebreeding this tight so wrong? Give me some examples of where it has turned out so wrong. I didn't think so. Well I'll tell YOU when it's wrong--it's wrong when you do not know the dogs PERSONALLY and what they bring to the table. It's wrong when that's the only stud you have access to cause your bitch is so shitty it can't be bred to a good dog--that's what puppy mills and BYBs do. It's wrong when you don't know the faults of each dog and you bring in things you don't really want. But then again if you are only breeding for money then who in the heck cares.

by vonissk on 29 September 2011 - 06:09

And by the way I know what Brackett says cause I have the book and have read it many many times. BTW Blitzen thanks for posting the link. I will put it in my favorites as I know sometimes people are looking for that book.
I guess you don't like him or what he did either. He was a genius. not only in his times but also by today's standards. Another breeder who is in todays times I think is a genius is Patricia Trotter--Born to Win Brred to Succeed I believe it's called. I guess she is such a terrible person too altho look at all the awards she has won with her Elkhounds. Oh excuse me I forgot some of you are so against the AKC and their practices. Well for those that are, start your own registry and see how far that gets you. I notice that you register you dogs AKC so they must not be that bad. Or you say it's the only registry that means anything? No you could register them with the SV or UScA or FCI. There's plenty of other places.
I remember the deal very well with Hans. If you go back and read all those pages you notice my name is not on a one of those posts. He came here honestly and told how it went down and was still bashed all to hell. So in doing all that, I'd say that was one of the main reasons we lost a good contributor to the board. I know I'm a nobody on this board and I know I make my little digs on people, but I can tell you this--I've been here 6 yrs and I don't plan on going anywhere. You can cuss me, my friends, my beliefs, and my dogs, but I am still going to stand up for what I know and what I believe in. I speak 3 languages, I am a dual citizen of this country and my nation, I live in 2 cultures and float between them every day and I am highly intelligent. Oh and I read people like a book.
By the way if you want to really bash me, do it this weekend cause I will be gone to BOB at the GSDCA Nationals. FYI my friend are going to have a great time together and not only do we want to see what's being produced, we want to look for new blood to bring in. And no not something that's so sloped it walks on hocks or so spooky it can't be worked. Believe it or not there are some American dogs with strong working drive and have the total package to go with it. I know that's probably hard for some of youto believe but if you would open your mind a little and look around you would see.
For all the ones who have sent me nice PMs offering support and advice thank you. I know who the real people are on here. And for those who've been nice through this topic thank you. again I know who the real people are..............

by Blitzen on 29 September 2011 - 14:09

Inbreeding and linbreeding done right has been proven successful in all breeds of dogs and livestock. If you read Brackett's article in its entirety, you can learn how genes combine and why outcrossing generation after generation or inbreeding generation after generation is not going to produce positive results longterm. I'm assuming that everyone reading this knows that genes are inherited in pairs, one half of each pair coming from each parent. It's a random pairing so the closer the dogs are related the better the chances of passing along their good qualities to their progeny. Breeding unrelated dogs for many generations lessens the chance of consistently producing specific characteristics. That's not my opinion, it's a scientific fact.

If one wants to be a purist every litter of ASL and GSL GSD's is linebred since all dogs today go back to the same foundation dogs. Don't take my word for that, sit down and trace your dogs' pedigrees back to the beginning, you can do that right here. This might really scare you - all GSL and ASL are also related going back to those same foundation dogs. Selective breeding by humans has made ALL these dogs what they are today.

If one really wants to do something for the breed, it might be a better idea to draw attention to the ads from breeders who are using untitled dogs (a BH is not a title), not xraying hips and elbows, not DNA testing for DM, not testing thyroids, hearts or doing any sort of temperament testing on the parents.

I wish I could be at the National too, Vonissk. I thought I was going to have an entry in the Parade of Greats, but sadly she died unexpectedly in May so I decided to cancel my plans. I think it would have just been too heartbreaking although 2 of her daughters and her grandson will be in that parade. I hope you have a great time..........

by vonissk on 29 September 2011 - 15:09

Great post Blitzen!!!! I think you might have read the Brackett book a few more times then me. Sure wish I could sit down and talk to you--I love to talk to people that make things come alive. And we can have a decent discussion. Oh and there is enough meatloaf left for one sandwich!!!!!! Have to bring your own bread though--haven't been to the store yet today.
You talked about the linebreeding on the ASL and the German SL. I have a little secret for a lot of folks out there--especially you DDR fans--check out some of those pedigrees-lots and lots of them are heavily linebred on also. I'm not sure if they thought those dogs were so great or if the gene pool is tightening up or if they just don't give a damn--which is my personal thought--because after all they are pure DDR and great sellers. All about the dollar bill.
And I definately agree that there are many people not doing health checks, not doing anything with their dogs whether it be a CGC or ScH3, much less going to training classes--those are the ones you need to concentrate on bashing or calling attention to. As I have said I am a nobody and maybe my friend is a terrible person ; at least we do all the health checks, keep the dogs in good shape physically and mentally, if anyone is sick I don't get on here and ask for advice, I get hold of my vet immediately. The other thing we go to classes and for the last 2 yrs have been trying to get UKC CH on everything. Yeah yeah yeah I know UKC is not such a much but it is SOMETHING. Mauli's brother and father are almost ready to try for their TDs.
I'm so sorry you lost your girl--my heart just goes out to you. It's so hard to lose one. I lost 2 girls and a kitty last year to cancer.
Sure wish you could be there. You'd know me--I'm the half breed looking old lady with the cane who primarily stays in one place cause I don't want to miss a thing!!!!!! I'd love to meet you. I'm beginning to know people around the circuit so I look forward to seeing them and my friend is always introducing me to people she has known for years. Once in a while I go right to ringside and talk to a handler if I really like a dog and maybe even get a doggy kiss. LOL. Thanks for the well wishes--I plan on having a great time. It'll be good to take a break and look at all the other dogs knowing I don't have to clean up or feed or wash or brush them...........................................

by Sunsilver on 29 September 2011 - 21:09

Speaking of DDR dogs, Vonissk, if you go back a few generations, you'll see that the dog in question actually has some linebreeding on Neumann's Jim in her pedigree!

by vonissk on 29 September 2011 - 22:09

Hey Sunsilver--the mother Melody, which is my Mauli's mother is linebred on Neuman's Jim!!!!!! I loved him. And the girl we have been talking about, Midnight, in all those linebreedings is linebred on Billie Spezialblut--not sure if I am spelling it right--who is a son of Quindt Barutherland. And the first DDR dog I owned was a beautiful blk.red male named Max who was Quindt's son. It was just funny when I was looking at that pedigree today and noticed that. I guess what goes around really does come around. LOL...............

by Blitzen on 30 September 2011 - 00:09

Thanks for your condolences on losing my girl, Vonissk. It seems like it happened yesterday. I too lost 2 GSD's in less than a year. I'm sorry for your losses too.

Neuman's Jim was a very special and important dog in the breed, wasn't he? Far as I know the only working line to earn an AKC champion title? Is that right?

I haven't shown at UKC shows yet, but I know some who do and they enjoy it very much. No pro handlers has to be a big plus for owner-handlers. I'm for any venue that offers owners a way to enjoy their dogs in a non-threatening environment. I am just learning about tracking and will soon be trying nose work with my new female.

by vonissk on 30 September 2011 - 01:09

Yes Neumann's Jim was not only working lines but also full DDR and he did get an AKC CH. He was also a ScH3, FH3, KKL1 and V rated. My friend was there when he got one of his majors given to him by Carmen Battagalia--not sure if that spelling is right. And he was a beautiful boy.
I love UKC--I mean there are politics like any place else and backstabbers like any place else. But it is a lot friendlier and a lot more family oriented. We took a puppy in the spring and my friend's 8 yr old neice wanted to show her--this kid or dog has never been in the ring before-- and the judge helped her stack her and showed her how to gait her. Then gave her a trophy and rosette which we told her to take home. The other thing I like about UKC is they not only put up working dogs but a lot of the judges prefer them. I have another friend who only has DDR dogs and she has Grand CH on some of her dogs. Sure there are what I call color blind judges that wouldn't put up a sable or black if they were the only dog there but you just get to know them--I have a notebook that has every judge we have shown under and I keep good notes because some I won't waste my money showing under. And especially now cause Mauli's almost finished and I am ready for her to be. Another thing I like is the shows are fairly small. And you're--an individual has just as good a chance to win as one with a handler. There are handlers there showing their own dogs and maybe helping someone out in a pinch. And tho some do dress up, there's also very casual. As in jeans and T shirts. You should try it and if you are just starting out, I'd even reccomend it. ............................
Great job doing tracking and working toward nose work. You go girl.......tell me about your female. Show lines, working lines, etc etc? I used to like tracking.

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