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by Prager on 10 October 2010 - 15:10
Debbie Sue proof is in the pudding. You and your dog are doing good. So Jeff I just want to make sure that I understand you right. According to you we should breed only the dogs which reach the highest level of herding, the highest level of Sch, ......??
I personally believe that dogs who reached highest level of anything are usually extreme dogs and breeding for extreme is what is really bad for GSD.That is how top SchH dogs are ruining the breed. Extreme drive, usually poor hips background, poor elbows background, bred for performance based on prey, with disregard of courage under threat, territoriality, longevity, bred to being numb to sudden stimulus like gun fire,....and I can keep going on and on and on...
GSD is a versatile dog and should perform well in any dog related field. But GSD must not be bred for singular, narrow purpose of any field. That is destruction of the breed. What Debbie Sue is doing is excellent example of what GSD should be.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
I personally believe that dogs who reached highest level of anything are usually extreme dogs and breeding for extreme is what is really bad for GSD.That is how top SchH dogs are ruining the breed. Extreme drive, usually poor hips background, poor elbows background, bred for performance based on prey, with disregard of courage under threat, territoriality, longevity, bred to being numb to sudden stimulus like gun fire,....and I can keep going on and on and on...
GSD is a versatile dog and should perform well in any dog related field. But GSD must not be bred for singular, narrow purpose of any field. That is destruction of the breed. What Debbie Sue is doing is excellent example of what GSD should be.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by duke1965 on 10 October 2010 - 16:10
hans that has nothing to do what GSD should be , but everything with the great intentions and motivations of debby sue
most people like that who really like what they do , but dont have a great dog , be it show or workingline , will try to get a better dog next time , which in itself is good for the breed
talked to a guy at my club today who has a mediocre showline dog which he is hoping to get schh 1 on by the end of this year , after that he wants a better dog , whit whom he wants to go for IPO3 and possible compete with , so the right intention off people is also important for improving the breed
most people like that who really like what they do , but dont have a great dog , be it show or workingline , will try to get a better dog next time , which in itself is good for the breed
talked to a guy at my club today who has a mediocre showline dog which he is hoping to get schh 1 on by the end of this year , after that he wants a better dog , whit whom he wants to go for IPO3 and possible compete with , so the right intention off people is also important for improving the breed
by ziegenfarm on 10 October 2010 - 18:10
you can talk till you're blue in the face and some folks will just never "get" it. they are convinced that schh is the ultimate test. every one of their conversations end with them standing on that block. duke, your friend is doing competitions and it is perfectly understandable that he would seek a "better" dog from competition dogs. sport dogs and real working dogs are not necessarily the same thing. that is what i attempted to get across in my original post. just because they are titled, does not mean they are working dogs. the only way they can prove they are real working dogs is for them to have the opportunity to do real work. that is the only proof. no amount of testing under fixed conditions can be considered proof.
pjp
pjp
by duke1965 on 10 October 2010 - 19:10
ziegenfarm , if you read my earlier postings in this topic you will see that I agree with you 100%
I myself breed combinations with sportoriented dogs to patroltype civil dogs and see that my dogs are used in many directions from ring /knpv , IPO , sar , detection ,personal protection , police/patrol etc
this is for me what this breed should be about
I myself breed combinations with sportoriented dogs to patroltype civil dogs and see that my dogs are used in many directions from ring /knpv , IPO , sar , detection ,personal protection , police/patrol etc
this is for me what this breed should be about
by smith on 10 October 2010 - 19:10
holy shit i cant stand jeff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish i could meet this guy in person! jeff lets see vidoes of YOU training your dogs and working them also some pedigrees!!! i bet you are 4'11 seems like you have the shor man syndrome!
by Jeff Oehlsen on 10 October 2010 - 20:10
Quote: Jeff I just want to make sure that I understand you right. According to you we should breed only the dogs which reach the highest level of herding, the highest level of Sch, ......??
I personally believe that dogs who reached highest level of anything are usually extreme dogs and breeding for extreme is what is really bad for GSD.That is how top SchH dogs are ruining the breed.
This was a general discussion not an exact discussion. I do not think that dogs that reach the highest levels of competition are extreme. There is no way typing that I am going to get across what I want to say exactly, just not any good at typing, too slow, have to think where the keys are too much.
Quote: bred for performance based on prey,
Well lets face it, how many times does the dog have to go into a blind before he stops being aggressive ? What is the point ? Most dogs that I see that "appear" aggressive are just really frustrated. I do have one question for you, something to think about. If a dog is not afraid of you, will he show aggression, or prey ?
Quote: talked to a guy at my club today who has a mediocre showline dog which he is hoping to get schh 1 on by the end of this year
That is what I am talking about. I am behind this guy 100%. When you start out, you get a dog, and maybe the dog is not all that. There is no way in the beginning unless you have an expert with you that you can guarantee that you will get a really nice dog for the work. So, you train as hard as you can, figure out what you like, and don't like about the dog you have, and go and get another. Then, as you progress, you see things in that dog that you really like, and don't like, and so the next dog you get you look for a dog based on what you are learning with your other dogs.
Quote: they are convinced that schh is the ultimate test.
You would be wrong if you are addressing me. It is a basic test and PART of what you look at. I have had, and seen really really nice Sch dogs that cannot be around children. I will not have that. I value character first, drives, thresholds and then how well the dog can do in sport. Even THEN, Sch is not the be all. You can look at a dogs score, and without knowing the training, or even how the persons life has gone, you still don't know much. There are other factors. SOme people have sickness in the family, job disappeared on them, club was too far away, all sorts of other factors.
I regard the lower level titles as a START, and nothing more. I know how giveaway some of those titles are.
Smith, I am 5'4" and very sensitive about my height. Here is a video of me and my dog hacking away at getting the level two. He is a good boy. I have a GSD that I hope to make less mistakes with, his name is Esko, and you can see his first bite work vid on my channel. Please don't make fun of my height again, it is very hard to have little man syndrome. I am awaiting my first shipment of little man treatment pills. HA HA
I personally believe that dogs who reached highest level of anything are usually extreme dogs and breeding for extreme is what is really bad for GSD.That is how top SchH dogs are ruining the breed.
This was a general discussion not an exact discussion. I do not think that dogs that reach the highest levels of competition are extreme. There is no way typing that I am going to get across what I want to say exactly, just not any good at typing, too slow, have to think where the keys are too much.
Quote: bred for performance based on prey,
Well lets face it, how many times does the dog have to go into a blind before he stops being aggressive ? What is the point ? Most dogs that I see that "appear" aggressive are just really frustrated. I do have one question for you, something to think about. If a dog is not afraid of you, will he show aggression, or prey ?
Quote: talked to a guy at my club today who has a mediocre showline dog which he is hoping to get schh 1 on by the end of this year
That is what I am talking about. I am behind this guy 100%. When you start out, you get a dog, and maybe the dog is not all that. There is no way in the beginning unless you have an expert with you that you can guarantee that you will get a really nice dog for the work. So, you train as hard as you can, figure out what you like, and don't like about the dog you have, and go and get another. Then, as you progress, you see things in that dog that you really like, and don't like, and so the next dog you get you look for a dog based on what you are learning with your other dogs.
Quote: they are convinced that schh is the ultimate test.
You would be wrong if you are addressing me. It is a basic test and PART of what you look at. I have had, and seen really really nice Sch dogs that cannot be around children. I will not have that. I value character first, drives, thresholds and then how well the dog can do in sport. Even THEN, Sch is not the be all. You can look at a dogs score, and without knowing the training, or even how the persons life has gone, you still don't know much. There are other factors. SOme people have sickness in the family, job disappeared on them, club was too far away, all sorts of other factors.
I regard the lower level titles as a START, and nothing more. I know how giveaway some of those titles are.
Smith, I am 5'4" and very sensitive about my height. Here is a video of me and my dog hacking away at getting the level two. He is a good boy. I have a GSD that I hope to make less mistakes with, his name is Esko, and you can see his first bite work vid on my channel. Please don't make fun of my height again, it is very hard to have little man syndrome. I am awaiting my first shipment of little man treatment pills. HA HA
by DebiSue on 11 October 2010 - 16:10
Wow! Thanks for all the support. I really appreciate everyone coming to my defense.
Jeff's comments don't hurt my feelings, they just make me think. I was thinking of him when I laid a SchH III track on Sunday with no food. Why a III when she is going for a I? Because we have fun and she can do it so why not. She did very well thank you. Other than casting about for food that wasn't to be found, she really pulled me along looking for the articles. I was pleased that she platzed without command on article one and three but had to laugh when she got to number two because she picked it up and threw it at me...not once but twice. I made her platz before rewarding her with a treat but her message was clear...here it is! This was on a recently mowed field with no tall grass for my scent to cling to and a slight breeze, dew still on the stubby grass. I'm proud of her. We went and worked on the dumbbell later in the day. She is bent on destroying it rather than pick it up off the ground. I can get her to take it from my hand and she will carry it over the jump and wall but if I try the flat retrieve she lays down and gnaws on it. Not sure why she is obsessed with that but this weekend she did show some improvement with bringing it to me. I think I will focus on the dumbbell for awhile.
Thanks for everyone's comments, even Jeff's!
DebiSue
by Prager on 12 October 2010 - 19:10
If a dog is not afraid of you, will he show aggression, or prey ?
Prey so what?
I am saying that SchH is not breeding dogs for natural protection (and many other purposes which I have mentioned above), where Prey and Defense based on courage is in proper balance of 50:50 or close to it and in proper amount of it.
Read defense based on courage as inherited protectiveness , territoriality, investigativness of suspicious objects, general alertness, aloofness..........
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
Prey so what?
I am saying that SchH is not breeding dogs for natural protection (and many other purposes which I have mentioned above), where Prey and Defense based on courage is in proper balance of 50:50 or close to it and in proper amount of it.
Read defense based on courage as inherited protectiveness , territoriality, investigativness of suspicious objects, general alertness, aloofness..........
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Bob McKown on 12 October 2010 - 19:10
It is the responsibility of the handler to expose there dogs to varying degree,s of work and experiences. I still work all my dogs on a 7 foot vertical wall, Expose gun shots to young dogs,all my dogs have been on and will be on bite suits, worked in strange places,dark places,water, the handler owes it to the dog to expose it to as much differing criteria as possible to make a more complete rounded dog. This is what will maintain the breed standard.
I have not but would love to expose my young dogs to sheep, properly.
We make of the breed what we train for.
I have not but would love to expose my young dogs to sheep, properly.
We make of the breed what we train for.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 12 October 2010 - 21:10
Quote: If a dog is not afraid of you, will he show aggression, or prey ?
Prey so what?
I am saying that SchH is not breeding dogs for natural protection (and many other purposes which I have mentioned above), where Prey and Defense based on courage is in proper balance of 50:50 or close to it and in proper amount of it.
Read defense based on courage as inherited protectiveness , territoriality, investigativness of suspicious objects, general alertness, aloofness..........
I am saying that how a dog is raised has more to do with how a dog turns out than many people think. A dog that has run into the blind since he was a puppy is not going to be serious, yet people actually believe that the dogs are serious in an exercise that they have done thousands of times probably.
You can say so what, but like I said, how can you judge a dog that has been trained extensively ? How can you know unless you know the training ? If the training is behavior shaping, which it is, then it makes it ever easier. LOL
The dogs might have been all the things you say, but people come to the house, people on the training field soccer games and what not change how people percieve the dog, and the dog his world.
I think that sport is what makes things so messy. But it is what they got the dog for.
THen, if you line up a hundred people and let them watch a dog go through some different exercises, and ask then to tell you what they see, every third person or less is going to have odd terminology, and many were taught so bad it is hard to know if they just cannot read a dog, or if someone told them a bunch of stupid shit.
I have had conversations with people and we are arguing about something, and so it goes back and forth and I remember the first conversation the guy has the dog do something again, points to something very specific and call it whatever and says how can you not see that.
It was terminology that screwed me that day. He also had a lower bar on what he considered high drive. However that is most of our mess.
Prey so what?
I am saying that SchH is not breeding dogs for natural protection (and many other purposes which I have mentioned above), where Prey and Defense based on courage is in proper balance of 50:50 or close to it and in proper amount of it.
Read defense based on courage as inherited protectiveness , territoriality, investigativness of suspicious objects, general alertness, aloofness..........
I am saying that how a dog is raised has more to do with how a dog turns out than many people think. A dog that has run into the blind since he was a puppy is not going to be serious, yet people actually believe that the dogs are serious in an exercise that they have done thousands of times probably.
You can say so what, but like I said, how can you judge a dog that has been trained extensively ? How can you know unless you know the training ? If the training is behavior shaping, which it is, then it makes it ever easier. LOL
The dogs might have been all the things you say, but people come to the house, people on the training field soccer games and what not change how people percieve the dog, and the dog his world.
I think that sport is what makes things so messy. But it is what they got the dog for.
THen, if you line up a hundred people and let them watch a dog go through some different exercises, and ask then to tell you what they see, every third person or less is going to have odd terminology, and many were taught so bad it is hard to know if they just cannot read a dog, or if someone told them a bunch of stupid shit.
I have had conversations with people and we are arguing about something, and so it goes back and forth and I remember the first conversation the guy has the dog do something again, points to something very specific and call it whatever and says how can you not see that.
It was terminology that screwed me that day. He also had a lower bar on what he considered high drive. However that is most of our mess.
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