This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Uber Land on 10 October 2010 - 21:10
and blues, I have seen blues that are just as red as any german showline. if there was a problem with pigment loss, why when bred to a non dilute carrier do some of these dogs still produce excellent dark pigmented pups?
same with livers.
you can't talk about melanin and such when you consider the parentage and what the dog has produced.
a weak pigmented/washed out dog is the problem, whether it is blue, liver, white, blk/red , blk/tan, sable ect.
by Uber Land on 10 October 2010 - 21:10
I don't see a washed out, poor pigmented dog, I see a bi-color who happens to be liver. look at his pedigree, past the tight inbreedin (though I have seen similar pedigree's done inEurope and in the states and if it was any other color than liver, most people wouldn't say a thing) every dog on the pedigree, and even the dog inbred on is NOT a poor pigmented dog. If bred to a non dilute bitch, this male would produce very dark pigmented puppies.
another example, my black female is from a liver sable bitch. she had a very rich red undercoat and produced quite dark pigmented, rich red pups when bred to a non liver male. no loss of pigment there!
what about red dobie, chocolate labs, or any other liver/red/chocolate breed? are those dogs poor pigment? No! if the had poor pigment or washed out color, they would produce it when bred to a non carrier.
by Uber Land on 10 October 2010 - 22:10
check out her male Hutch, dark lips and gums on this boy, No loss of pigment on he or the pups he has produced.
by AmbiiGSD on 10 October 2010 - 23:10
by jc.carroll on 11 October 2010 - 01:10
I do not have a problem with liver GSDs in any way, shape, or form. However, there doesn't seem to be sizeable genepool of liver dogs from quality lines. Most of them seem to be the product of tight, substandard breedings. That type of breeding will cause problems, regardless of color. I don't think it's color causing the issues, I think it's lack of quality stock.
Breeds like dobes and, perhaps a better example, border collies, there are much fewer cases of health issues in non-black-pigmented dogs, possibly because there is a much broader genepool of proven dogs to breed to. The ones with health and/or temperament problems didn't have to be used to "preserve" the color.
If liver is accepted, then the only way to improve the liver genepool would be to breed back to quality dogs. However, I can't imagine a lot of breeders would be willing to let their highly titled males breed to untitled, liver bitches. Liver (and blue) would have an uphill battle to prove themselves after years of substandard dogs and the negative stigma surrounding off colors.
by Uber Land on 11 October 2010 - 05:10
jc.carrol is right in her last post.
there are a small select few group of breeders working to improve the lines with the liver color, slowly but surely dogs are being imported, and dogs from imported parents are being bought and tested for health.
the problem many have is the pups who are born this color from well bred litters are either culled due to ignorance on the health of these colors, or the breeders place them without papers. hard to improve on something when very few are willing to work with you or help.
having these colors in your litters is not something to be ashamed of. and most (except for poorly bred ones, but thats the same with any color) are just as healthy and have the same temperment and working ability as their standard colored siblings.
plus, the gene that produces the dalmation color IS NOT the same as the white in our breed! that is a merle/harliquin gene. totally different!
by AmbiiGSD on 11 October 2010 - 07:10
I'd suggest further reading on the White gene and how dilution affect it.
by owl01 on 11 October 2010 - 11:10
As has been pointed out before on this forum linebreeding close or otherwise has long been one tool used by the powers that be in Germany,if it is a tool no longer in use so be it but the fact remains.I can't help but wonder if Uber Land has the right of it-very few people would say anything if the dog was black and tan.
The blocking gene that produces Liver is surely the same for other dogs?Why do we not have a hue and cry over chocolate Labs or Liver Dobes for example?
by AmbiiGSD on 11 October 2010 - 13:10
To have one pop up in a litter, well that's nature, but to actively seek to breed them and then have people supporting this...
It's certainly not for the Good of the breed now is it?
by jc.carroll on 11 October 2010 - 14:10
In addition to being white at birth and spotting as it ages, it also has a peculiarly high level of uric acid in ts urine, far and above what can typically be expected in any other canine. They have a unique liver and kidney chemistry unseen in any other breed. There have been speculations that there is a link between the dal's unique color patterning, and it's equally unique biochemistry. They somewhat frequently suffer from uric acidd stones, which do not occur normally in other dogs unless that dog has a liver disease.
The cause of deafness has to do with lack of melanin. The direct correlation is not yet entirely understood. If it were direct, then all tyrosinase-negative albinos would be deaf.
Melanin, which, in addition to adding pigment, is crucial in the midbrain. This is true of all mammals, including humans. Melanin in the fur is actually fairly inconsequential as there are plenty of white furred animals; it's the presence in the skin, and internally. In the brain lack of melanin has a deleterious effect a wide range of brain functions: the adrenal gland, brainstem, and substantia nigra -- which gained its name from it's color. "Black stuff." Albinos, t-positve albinos, and double merles have severely reduced melanin internall as well as externally.
I think the overal pigmentation, rather than fur color, is more indicative of the soundness of an animal. The white GSD, with it's full pigmented lips, mouth, eyerims, and pawpads, is a much more sound specimen than the albino doberman, a tyrosinase-positive animal.
The Dal has full pigmentation, but clearly from the internal workings, there are other genetic quirks at play that could correlate with the unique coat, and trigger deafness.
If anyone wants more info, PM me.
I don't want to hijack this with an in depth lesson on melanin-in-neurochemistry, and my thoughts thereof.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top