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by Sue B on 05 February 2010 - 16:02
Will all BAGSD members vote, no matter what breed of dog they have, is a very valid point Jim h and one I have repeatedly made reference to myself. Of course all members have an equal right to vote afterall they pay the same membership fee as everyone else, of that there can be no denying. However there is one very fundamental but extremely important difference to the relevance of a vote from a non GSD owning member and the question that should be asked is "Why should these members be voting on issues that neither effects them or their dogs?"
At the very least the BAGDS EC should have been issueing statements to ALL MEMBERS explaining this but of course as the BAGSD Website already gives the somewhat biased views of the KC Members within this Clubs Committee fiercely protecting their own standing with the KC rather than the protection of the future Health of our beloved breed , the ordinary Pet Owning member of BAGSD (be they GSD owner or otherwise) will be totally unaware of the POLITICS AT PLAY HERE an ignorance that more than suits the majority of those on the BAGDS EC.
Ordinary people look to take guidance from those they consider knowledgable, this has and always will be the way of things. The letter the GSD League Council presented to their members expressed exactly what this was about, the difference between the Mandate given to the GSDP on Health and Welfare Initiatives by the majority of GSD Breed Clubs or the draconion dictatorship of the KC who care more about the future Revenue Generated in Registering our Breed than the Future Health of our Breed in Mandatory Health checks.
Ask the normal Pet Owning public would they rather ;- A) Purchase a pup from CC winning parents who may or may not be identifyable or
have attained any creditable Health Checks.
OR
B) Purchase a pup from Identifyable parents who have both completed and passed certain
Mandatory Health Checks and has been show / breed graded to World Union Shepherd Club standards.
I think we all know the majority would vote for Option B.
However, in the absence of this guidance and indeed in the presence of the statements being put out by certain EC/KC Members to date, I suspect the vote from BAGSD;s members will be a close run thing which I am sure all of us will be watching with interest. More interesting will be what the VPG Members decide to do if the vote goes against what they believe is the correct way forward. Hmmmm, watching this space could be very interesting.
Regards
Sue b
At the very least the BAGDS EC should have been issueing statements to ALL MEMBERS explaining this but of course as the BAGSD Website already gives the somewhat biased views of the KC Members within this Clubs Committee fiercely protecting their own standing with the KC rather than the protection of the future Health of our beloved breed , the ordinary Pet Owning member of BAGSD (be they GSD owner or otherwise) will be totally unaware of the POLITICS AT PLAY HERE an ignorance that more than suits the majority of those on the BAGDS EC.
Ordinary people look to take guidance from those they consider knowledgable, this has and always will be the way of things. The letter the GSD League Council presented to their members expressed exactly what this was about, the difference between the Mandate given to the GSDP on Health and Welfare Initiatives by the majority of GSD Breed Clubs or the draconion dictatorship of the KC who care more about the future Revenue Generated in Registering our Breed than the Future Health of our Breed in Mandatory Health checks.
Ask the normal Pet Owning public would they rather ;- A) Purchase a pup from CC winning parents who may or may not be identifyable or
have attained any creditable Health Checks.
OR
B) Purchase a pup from Identifyable parents who have both completed and passed certain
Mandatory Health Checks and has been show / breed graded to World Union Shepherd Club standards.
I think we all know the majority would vote for Option B.
However, in the absence of this guidance and indeed in the presence of the statements being put out by certain EC/KC Members to date, I suspect the vote from BAGSD;s members will be a close run thing which I am sure all of us will be watching with interest. More interesting will be what the VPG Members decide to do if the vote goes against what they believe is the correct way forward. Hmmmm, watching this space could be very interesting.
Regards
Sue b
by jaymesie51 on 05 February 2010 - 16:02
I for one cannot see how a person that neither owns or has an interest in the GSD should have a vote on its future as this letter of undertaking is purely for the GSD community surely it should only be that community that votes to decide its future and not uncle tom cobbly and all.Why should a Dobe Rottie or a Poodle owner have a vote on the GSD's future i bet they would not let us vote on the future of their breeds.
jim h
jim h
by Aileen Ann Mathieson on 05 February 2010 - 17:02
THE FUTURE IS ORANGE AS THEY SAY -
1. Landsgruppen Shows held at whatever frequency a particular Group feel is appropriate with points accummulated over said time in the run up to a Sieger Event yearly.
2. Rotating yearly or HELD EVERY YEAR IN EACH COUNTRY if that is the preference - 1 x Scottish Sieger Event 1 x Irish Sieger Event 1 x Welsh Sieger Event and 1 x English Sieger Event run under the WUSV Rules.
3. Culminating IN THE 5TH YEAR - in a HUGE WUSV EVENT FOR THE WHOLE OF THE UK and promoting this Event Worldwide on the lines of the German Sieger.
CHANGES DO NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT - BUT THEY DO NOT TAKE 20 YEARS TO CHANGE EITHER WITH THE RIGHT GUIDANCE AND ATTITUDE.
Plans are afoot for this kind of system to begin in the very near future. As Mo and Sue and Jim has said it is POSSIBLE as the people who want this kind of system are MORE THAN EXPERIENCED ENOUGH to pull this off and it is all beginning in Scotland on the 27th of February 2010.
THERE IS ROOM IN THIS COUNTRY FOR A SYSTEM THAT IS FREE TO ALL AND FAIR TO ALL - where GSD Breeders. Exhibitors and Owners can have a choice - unlike the German System any new plans in the UK would have to incorporate the people who CANNOT for whatever reason take part in Schutzhund - therefore other qualifications would be added in on the lines of BH (at present the KCGC Bronze, Silver & Gold is being used to enter the Adult Classes of the present British Sieger). There are many other qualifications that could be used which clearly identifies a good temperament GSD that is capable of doing a job of work whether it is COMPANION DOG - POLICE DOG - WORKING DOG etc and I am sure there is enough knowledge out there to put a system together in a very short space of time.
THE KC IS NOT THE LAW OF THE LAND - IN UK WE HAVE THE FREEDOM TO BRING IN A SYSTEM THAT WORKS FOR THE BREED AND THE PEOPLE WHO WISH TO HAVE FIT AND HEALTHY DOGS AND THE KC IS NOT THAT SYSTEM - THEY HAVE PROVED THEIR WORTH TO THIS BREED AND THAT WORTH = ZERO.
With people like Mo Lakin and Jean Duff in Ireland and those of like minds we can and will change the future of the GSD in the UK.
Aileen
1. Landsgruppen Shows held at whatever frequency a particular Group feel is appropriate with points accummulated over said time in the run up to a Sieger Event yearly.
2. Rotating yearly or HELD EVERY YEAR IN EACH COUNTRY if that is the preference - 1 x Scottish Sieger Event 1 x Irish Sieger Event 1 x Welsh Sieger Event and 1 x English Sieger Event run under the WUSV Rules.
3. Culminating IN THE 5TH YEAR - in a HUGE WUSV EVENT FOR THE WHOLE OF THE UK and promoting this Event Worldwide on the lines of the German Sieger.
CHANGES DO NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT - BUT THEY DO NOT TAKE 20 YEARS TO CHANGE EITHER WITH THE RIGHT GUIDANCE AND ATTITUDE.
Plans are afoot for this kind of system to begin in the very near future. As Mo and Sue and Jim has said it is POSSIBLE as the people who want this kind of system are MORE THAN EXPERIENCED ENOUGH to pull this off and it is all beginning in Scotland on the 27th of February 2010.
THERE IS ROOM IN THIS COUNTRY FOR A SYSTEM THAT IS FREE TO ALL AND FAIR TO ALL - where GSD Breeders. Exhibitors and Owners can have a choice - unlike the German System any new plans in the UK would have to incorporate the people who CANNOT for whatever reason take part in Schutzhund - therefore other qualifications would be added in on the lines of BH (at present the KCGC Bronze, Silver & Gold is being used to enter the Adult Classes of the present British Sieger). There are many other qualifications that could be used which clearly identifies a good temperament GSD that is capable of doing a job of work whether it is COMPANION DOG - POLICE DOG - WORKING DOG etc and I am sure there is enough knowledge out there to put a system together in a very short space of time.
THE KC IS NOT THE LAW OF THE LAND - IN UK WE HAVE THE FREEDOM TO BRING IN A SYSTEM THAT WORKS FOR THE BREED AND THE PEOPLE WHO WISH TO HAVE FIT AND HEALTHY DOGS AND THE KC IS NOT THAT SYSTEM - THEY HAVE PROVED THEIR WORTH TO THIS BREED AND THAT WORTH = ZERO.
With people like Mo Lakin and Jean Duff in Ireland and those of like minds we can and will change the future of the GSD in the UK.
Aileen
by Penny on 05 February 2010 - 18:02
Hi Aileen
I dont know about the future being Orange - its positively SPARKLING - and BLINGY all in one !!!! well done for that sketch of what can be, I`m brushing my dogs up already Mo.
I dont know about the future being Orange - its positively SPARKLING - and BLINGY all in one !!!! well done for that sketch of what can be, I`m brushing my dogs up already Mo.
by Sue B on 05 February 2010 - 18:02
Aileen, Never thought it would happen in my lifetime, but to see the 'light' and still be alive is positively BRILLIANT !!! 
Dont sign the KC Undertaking and Walk into the light !!
Bill, I think you might need to brush up on WUSV rules or have a word with David Payne.
Regards
Sue b
Dont sign the KC Undertaking and Walk into the light !!
Bill, I think you might need to brush up on WUSV rules or have a word with David Payne.
Regards
Sue b
by Blerio on 05 February 2010 - 22:02
Sue, I will wait till the end date that this letter needs to be in, 31st march, and see what the split is, I would like to see a strong mandate for change, I hope we can clearly identify through a strong vote that we go the right way, lets hope we get enough people who disagree with the K.C.to formulate a future for this breed. I don't need to speak to David about my views, like you I want the best for this breed, But please, let clubs and people make their own mind up. regards Bill Owen.
by Penny on 05 February 2010 - 23:02
Certain branches have informed me that they have not had a letter from BAGSD to get their clubs votes in. They read that I have had a letter and they have waited for theirs to come via email as mine did. I am taking my copy letter to another branch secretary that I happen to be meeting within the next few days. This is again a disgrace.... why on earth should some branches get, and some not? Email is cheap, quick and easy, and the people that have said they havent received a letter as I did, are on the system.
Come on BAGSD - isnt there enough of the brown stuff flying around about things not being transparent, you dont need to invent other reasons for folk to think. my email was sent to me on the 2nd - 4 days ago. When I send an email for varying persons to view and giving them all the same chance - I send it in bulk. . I have also looked at my letter to make sure I had the date right.and I notice now .... a part of it reads.....
If you hold a branch referendum please advise of the numbers for, against and abstaining
OK. This is a worry. As a branch secretary hell bent on signing or not signing, will it be acceptable for me to write
Hello Doreen or Wayne - ! have 10 members for signing 6 members for not signing and 3 abstaining.
No I`m afraid it wont, because it has to be seen to be a valid vote from every member, and a true vote from every member, not the en bloc secretary option. i.e. When I send in my vote from Derbyshire VPG I will be writing a list of names of members - when they paid their 2010 membership and what their vote is. I could do it another way. I could say to hell with it, I want not to sign this letter- lets send Doreen a set of figures that will reflect the same, making up the same no of people as I have on my club books.
it will all have to be checked in view of the silly talk from certain members that have told people including myself that BAGSD WILL sign - many weeks ago. That is what set me off on my march
Once again I have to say that looking at the present position BAGSD EC committee have made this issue incredibly complicted for themselves, and such hard work.
I have to refer back to the League committee. Got the letter from the KC - talked amongst themselves as to what they felt was best, set out their stall on their website, directed members to it, who clicked on the sec email address and just voted themselves...... meerkat syndrome Simples -
Now at least 10 people I speak to are very interested about how the vote will be counted and some people are going to make it their business to find out that honesty has prevailed. All because people decided in the beginning that it was a push over and a foregone conclusion and said so loud and clear. Will I ever get any ironing done if BAGSD dont get things done simply, fairly, and without looking like we all have to watch that the vote is fair. I feel like a Jack Russell with a rat - come on BAGSD give us a break, you are all watching the thread, make an announcement, shock us, tell us that John Ward, and An Other EC member will sit and count each member vote, not each secretarys numbers that they send in with anonymity as to who did what. Mo. .
Come on BAGSD - isnt there enough of the brown stuff flying around about things not being transparent, you dont need to invent other reasons for folk to think. my email was sent to me on the 2nd - 4 days ago. When I send an email for varying persons to view and giving them all the same chance - I send it in bulk. . I have also looked at my letter to make sure I had the date right.and I notice now .... a part of it reads.....
If you hold a branch referendum please advise of the numbers for, against and abstaining
OK. This is a worry. As a branch secretary hell bent on signing or not signing, will it be acceptable for me to write
Hello Doreen or Wayne - ! have 10 members for signing 6 members for not signing and 3 abstaining.
No I`m afraid it wont, because it has to be seen to be a valid vote from every member, and a true vote from every member, not the en bloc secretary option. i.e. When I send in my vote from Derbyshire VPG I will be writing a list of names of members - when they paid their 2010 membership and what their vote is. I could do it another way. I could say to hell with it, I want not to sign this letter- lets send Doreen a set of figures that will reflect the same, making up the same no of people as I have on my club books.
it will all have to be checked in view of the silly talk from certain members that have told people including myself that BAGSD WILL sign - many weeks ago. That is what set me off on my march
Once again I have to say that looking at the present position BAGSD EC committee have made this issue incredibly complicted for themselves, and such hard work.
I have to refer back to the League committee. Got the letter from the KC - talked amongst themselves as to what they felt was best, set out their stall on their website, directed members to it, who clicked on the sec email address and just voted themselves...... meerkat syndrome Simples -
Now at least 10 people I speak to are very interested about how the vote will be counted and some people are going to make it their business to find out that honesty has prevailed. All because people decided in the beginning that it was a push over and a foregone conclusion and said so loud and clear. Will I ever get any ironing done if BAGSD dont get things done simply, fairly, and without looking like we all have to watch that the vote is fair. I feel like a Jack Russell with a rat - come on BAGSD give us a break, you are all watching the thread, make an announcement, shock us, tell us that John Ward, and An Other EC member will sit and count each member vote, not each secretarys numbers that they send in with anonymity as to who did what. Mo. .
by pacosbear on 06 February 2010 - 20:02
New on the BAGSD website - paragraph 3 has been amended to read as below
The E.C. will instigate a yes or no vote from members through their branch secretary. All members names will be recorded with their vote and this will be collated by the General Secretary and counted by an independent person.
Mo's suggestion of one person from each side of the vote to count the votes will certainly make the Branch result transparent but I dont suppose there is any chance of Mo's suggestion being being implemented for the big count.
The E.C. will instigate a yes or no vote from members through their branch secretary. All members names will be recorded with their vote and this will be collated by the General Secretary and counted by an independent person.
Mo's suggestion of one person from each side of the vote to count the votes will certainly make the Branch result transparent but I dont suppose there is any chance of Mo's suggestion being being implemented for the big count.
by reble yell on 07 February 2010 - 00:02
OMG are you all mad any one who considers signing this peice of KC garbage must be....I do not profess to be all knowledgeable but I am not stupid to sign this is agreeing that the kc are right in the following ..... Unsoundness that we as gsd owners/breeders/working and show class are working so hard to put right is all for nothing alsation unsound 1950's coffee tables that are not fit for purpose are what the want to see. they keep stating that they are a private club for uk pedigree puppy registration only, bull shit they are mini dictators who do not give a shit about animal welfare other wise manditory health checks would be in place for all breeds. they are nothing but money grabbing mini bloody dictators and we need to stand up to them. I am so angry why are we even debating this the answer should be take your bllody cc,s and stick them where the sun dont shine. i happen to have researched the legality of all this and dont know mr payne personnaly but he is spot on. also happen to know of a politician (not that I have much faith in them who has been watching this debate with more than a little intrest) Stop being yes men stand up to this dictatorship or watch all the work you have done to improve your breed be for nothing. give in to them and watch the gsd as we know it go forever. there are ways around this but we need to join as one if there is a weak link the chain will break. lets face it something else can replace cc,s how much fun is the seiger and breed shows compared with the crappy all breeds kc run over priced silent boring and even if you win the top award a mean peice of card and buy your own rossett and cup if you want it. all the little yes men sitting or standing round only one ring yip you got it the unruley gsd crowd. wake up please do not sign this what they gonna do if we dont private clubs can not take action against the public fo not following there rules are you all mad or scared !!!!!!!! health and welfare of our breed should come first and the kennel club if they can dictate to us about double handling and unsoundness and threaten us with the removal of cc,s should be able to implicate manditory health screening hips elbows etc or else but no they would loose money so that will never happen. my god lets rid our selfs of the kc and only use them for what they say is there only role as a private club puppy registration. we as a group can do so much better and our show entries might just improve when the shows become fun. and the dogs that are shown are healthy and sound and bred to the germanic standard and continuing to improve all the time.
by shez on 07 February 2010 - 09:02
Absolutley spot on.
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