Questions for the genetics wizards out there - Page 3

Ferrum.  My son also breeds Betta's.  He lives in San Antonio.  I tried many years ago.  They built the bubble nests but I never did get any babies.  I think I aerated their tank too much.

As to pigeon antibiotics and medications.  They are given lots of them, for the various ailments that can be contracted by them.  No, they are not x-rayed.  If they fly well, they are "saved".  If they do not fly well.  Well, culling is a big part of pigeon racing, although there are some who do not cull (in the sense of kill), I being one of them.  I did it when I first started but found it distastful and found other ways.  It is difficult as you can't just turn them loose to live in the wild, as the are homing pigeons :)

I guess anything is possible, but to have a thoroughbred racing pigeon mate with a feral pigeon, would be highly unusual, and downright unheard of, if the racing pigeon was only out for the length of time of a race (1 to 3 days depending on the weather).  Pigeons basically mate for life as long as their mate is still around.  If the mate disappears for a few weeks, they will find a new mate.   Occasionally a hen will "squat" for a strange male.  Males will sometimes take two "wives".  Strange that the lowly pigeon mates for life, but the higher up dog does not.

Reminds me of us humans a lot. :)

An influx of wild (feral) blood into racers, or any of the other types of pigeons (show, tipplers, tumblers, etc.) is never done intentionally, unless by a mad scientist.  Wild pigeons have nothing to offer.  They are smaller, have less homing ability, less endurance, etc.  They only thing they would have to offer is a new genetic pool, however, there are millions of purebred homing pigeons and new genetic material is not needed, like it seems to be in the GSD (don't want to go there though).

Sometime, if you find yourself in a park where there is a large pigeon population, you might see a racer or two that got lost during racing and just fell into living with a wild flock.  If you look close at the pigeons in the park, look for one that is more "robust" looking and then look at its legs.  You just might see a plastic band (sometimes metal but not so much anymore).  That is a racer someone lost.  I have seen them on occasion, but I look for them.  Most people don't.  It is not unheard of that some get lost but usually they come home.  If it didn't, then the owner is lucky and so is the bird.  It may have been culled if it came home a week later, if the owners other birds came home the day they were let out.  Athough, like dogs, a pigeon that is watered, housed and fed by humans all of its life may find it hard to live in the wild.  Believe it or not, there are pigeon adoption organizations, trying to stop the culling.

sunsilver I think you hit the nail on the head

inbreeding is not the problem , poor selection is

if people would use mother nature"s selection criteria there wouldnot be so many problems

also the concept of genetic diversaty is mostly misunderstood

you dont need genetic diversaty in a dog , but you need it in a breed , to outcross(100%) on a inbred family

so basically if you breed a 4-4 combination to any dog , your not inbreeding , but your also not outcrossing

At the time the pedigree of morgan and paladin were doubted by some for accuracy.  The paladin stuff I had was missing in dentition, had bad hips, long banana noses, big ears, weak pigment and too much bloat (some had lots of angles, short backs and lots of sidegait).  I always thought there was way too much close breeding in these dogs and this produced the degeneracy. 

The number of beautiful young dogs out of scorpio that died of gastric torsion was legendary, and to this day you can trace that genetic influence from him expressed in splenic torsion.  He typically produced litters with 3 or 4 males that were all top show quality (one was a litter with four male champions and they were all good looking GSDs at maturity). One of the most beautiful GSDs ever imported was Ulk Wikingerblut (of "records live-opinions die" fame).

The Ulk litters I saw were all coats or monorchids or had very weak ears that wouldn't come up, and the owners were very sad because otherwise these puppies were georgeous with very good confirmation and movement. His breedings dropped off quickly once the word got out.

The buiggest most successful american kennel of the lance, scorpio, paladin era didn't xray for hips (few did then), buty they lucked out because their top stud dog alone just happened to be a very good producer of hips and elbows. The other one not so good.

The history of the showlines in west Germany today is almost all inbreeding (usually 3-4, or 4-5).  You get good type, confirmation and consistency but too many genetic issues, especially too high a frequency of bad recessives in my view. This is done for a reason, to get the predictable higher rate of good confirmation desired.  But the genetic cost can be very high. For a breeder to select out the best producing bitches with the cleanest health/joints and producers of such is a difficult and expensive proposition.  I am always impressed and interested in any lines where the bitches live to be 12-13 years old and produce a low percentage of genetic problems and a high percentage of progeny that can go koerklasse 1.

Strangely enough I was just looking at a racing homer website today, cant remember how I found the link at the moment but I saw pigeons from a top breeder for $700.00 each.  And you thought dogs were expensive..lol    I used to keep pigeons of all kinds.  Homers, rollers, kings, and feral. Lahores and fantails, and a few others I cant remember.  I think they are different because of the perils they face and the culling, and just because they are pigeons.  I know you can inbreed poultry tighter than dogs and less in some livestock. And humans even less, its just not done..  Except here in the sticks..LOL

I know of a few second cousins that have married and so on.   Anyway my point is I believe every animal has a different tolerance  built into its genetic makeup.  And I'm fairly sure it has to do with how an animal has evolved in its particular environment.  Animals who range may breed at random were animals who's habitat is closer or smaller may mate for life, or until it loses a mate and must select another.  And animals who have more loss due to natural selection in a harsh invironment definately have a stronger genetic makeup than those who are kept such as by humans, pets, live stock, and so on.

No facts just my opinion, and by the way, I'd be in the market for a couple of nice homers if anyone had any.

I also saw a re-run Nova special on TV tonight about dogs, wolves, and scientists collecting DNA in search of the true roots of the domestic dog. Has anyone seen this Nova program?

Two Moons, I watched the latter one-half (1/2) of the presentation with my wife. We plan to order the DVD of the show, and if anyone is interested this DVD is available by calling 800/336.1917.

Regards,

Bob-O

Try Malcolm Willis book, The German Shepherd, A genetic history. Full of info, and easy reading, well explained, laymans terms.

Preston, maybe those are the reasons Ulk was sold  here in the first place? I've heard others say he was the best GSD ever imported from Germany and his photos seem to  uphold that, but his genetics were not an asset to the breed in the US. It often seems to me that the breed is set up to fail in this country. I still do not understand the reasoning behind not promoting dogs bred here in favor of the European dogs, but that's a thread for another day.

Inbreeding and close linebreeding is widely practiced and accepted in many breeds of dogs; it is not considered voodoo science or incest in the dog world. Lloyd Brackett considered the ideal breeding to be that of grandsire to granddaughter. That would be termed a linebreeding, not an inbreeding. The term "inbreeding" is correctly applied to a dog that is the result of brother x sister, sire x daughter, son x dam, NOT a sibling or a dog from the same "line". No two dogs carry indentical genomes, even littermates unless they are identical twins which is extremely rare in the dog world.  This is why one can breed to the brother of a dog they have used previously and get very different results. It is also quite possible to have a lesser quality brother that produces better progeny than his better quality brother - same for females. It's not always garbage in, garbage out obviously as if it were the quality of all dogs would be of the highest possible standard.

I can understand and agree with most of the SV rules regarding breeding GSD's except the restrictions on close linbreedings or inbreedings.  It makes no sense whatsoever to me to outcross generation after generation. That's 2 steps forward and 3 steps back.

Two Moons:  I can give you some really nice homers if you wait until summer as I have just purchased 10 older breeders.  Here is a link to just one I recently purchased on an auction.   But if you are interested in something now, try this link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10

This link is just to a small part of a site similar to the GSDDataBase site.  It is called PigeonTalk.com.  Did you know that there is a 24/7 radio show called Pigeon Radio.  Constant discussion about racing pigeons.  I can provide the link if anyone is interested (although I doubt it ).

Just for fun.  Here is a link to GanusFamilyLofts.com  Mike Ganus routinely purchases birds for 10 to 20 thousand dollars and even more, breeds them and sells the babies for 1500 to 5 grand a piece.  He does have some of the best.  I have three from him.

http://ganusfamilyloft.com/bbdirectory.htm

Click on any of the birds named there and you will see what is comparable to VA dogs in the GSD world.  Prices are comparable to VA dogs also, maybe slightly less.

Here is a link showing a typical well bred racing pigeons pedigree.  Just for fun, go through it replacing in your mind the name of any VA dog.  Let's say Ursus Batu, wherever the pigeon pedigree says "Hekkenklak" (a very famous racer).  Then see how you would react if you were thinking about buying a puppy with a pedigree like this.

http://hekkenklak.com/listings/details/large_pic.cfm?Image=2&itemnum=884876704&title=AU-07-OMA-1864%20%20All%20Hekkenklak

This is a pigeon that is currently up for auction, that I may bid on as I have others heavily inbred to Hekkenklak.  Just like in dogs, pigeons have their body areas scrutinized, such as keel, breastbone, wing length, tail being up, straight, down or of one point or more, etc, etc., and as I mentioned on other threads in the past, eyesign is really big in pigeons.  I believe it is a crock but many, many fanciers believe you can tell a good pigeon by the coloration and other factors of a close up look at its eyes.  Some racers only purchase birds that have a certain "look" in its eyes.  There are even show ONLY for best eye sign.