breeding snafu? Help! - Page 3

It looks as if the situation will be cleared up without any difficulty.  ALL thier dogs are very nice, so it's all good!

Agouti is not a color or pattern itself, but refers either to the loci or allele series.  The agouti locus on the chromosome is where the pairing of any two of the alleles coding for color pattern are located, of the allelic types aw, as, at, & a (ay series is not found in the german shepherd breed).  As stated by molly, the most dominant of the two in a pair that a dog posseses, is the one phenotypically expressed.

A dog of this color pattern (phenotype) can have these allele pairs (genotype)...

Sable (aw)
aw+aw
aw+as
aw+at
aw+a

Black & Tan (as)
as+as
as+at
as+a

Bi-Color (at)
at+at
at+a

Black (a)
a+a

This means that a sable cannot be produced without a sable parent (nor from black & tans or from bicolors, as some would argue)

I don'tthink that is quite correct.  I'm going waaaayyyy back into my university biology classes with some help from that site and will describe how I understand dog color genetics. 

A "locus" refers to a place.  (thank god for my smidgen of latin, LOL)  Think of the word locus as location and one would get a better idea of the concept.   A locus actually specific place on a strand of DNA that the color genetics occurs.  There is actually an A locus, a B locus, a G locus etc, but the genetic color code is different than the locus.  The same letters are used to show where on the DNA strand it occurs, but the use of letters themselves (capitalized or lower case, reused) show what color and how it will be expressed in terms of what it will look like and where the colours will be on the dog.)

The structure of DNA is such that there are polymers of  substances called nucleotides in a double helix pattern.  The variants of the combinations of those nucleotides in various patterns basically contains the  map or blueprint of a life itself and it's expression., whether it be expressing itself as a frog or a human, with green skin, white skin, hair, or color. 

At the point on the DNA chain that the color gene occurs for dogs, there may be several chemical variants that give rise to the colour and it's various expression.s  (that is, what color (s) will the dog be, and how and where will those colors occur.   That grouping, so to speak, is called a "series" because it is not simply one  simple nucleotide at one locus - it is a complex group of chemicals occurring in various patterns..  

By the way, in my view, if anyone says this is "plain and simple" is fooling themselves.  it is anything but plain and simple. 

  The dogs  color genetic consists of several different patterns of the nucleotides at the location ("locus") that the informational material occurs.  

"Agouti" does not refer to a locus or a series.  Agouti patterning occurs as a RESULT  of the various series of nucleotides in combination. 

Ay is sable.  Sable is characterized by the capital A.  The small a refers to agouti. 

aw is agouti

aw +aw could only produce agouti, not sable.

I believe, in reviewing the some of the posts, the term "sable" used may be used incorrectly, when "agouti" is a more correct term - but it is within the GSD community - not other dogs that agouti is called "sable" - totally confusing.   It appears that the "agouti" expression is typified by single hairs of more than one colour. 

Both  dogs are owned by Old Farm Kennels in Connecticut http://www.oldfarmkennels.com/Ourdogs.html

Why not simply invest in Malcomb B. Willis's book on the Genetics of the German Shepherd Dog.?
He lists all the genetic variables in "color, coat etc...etc...".....from which the breed was created..
It's a great book, it's a learning book, and a must for GSD breeders....I believe.

Glad it's going to be cleared up.

I have a question, though, that's not related to color.  Are their dogs also AKC registered?  I saw on their website that they charge "a $100 fee" to transfer ownership on AKC papers.  If the parents are not AKC, then I guess they want to be paid for the paperwork to make AKC happen.  But if the parents ARE AKC registered and ownership is transferred, seems you should get the papers when you buy your puppy.

Sheila Schmutz at he University of Saskatchewan  has updated it as at August of this year.  She looks at the various books on genetics and says this about Malcom B Willis's book, among others

:"Two classic books tell us much about the inheritance of coat colors and patterns in dogs. The one most quoted is by Clarence C. Little, The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs, Howell Book House, 1957. The other is by Ojvind Winge, Inheritance in Dogs with Special Reference to the Hunting Breeds, Comstock Publishing, Ithaca, N.Y. 1950. A third book, Comparative Genetics of Coat Colour in Mammals, by A. G. Searle, Logos Press 1968 is also a useful resource. This page is organized by the coat colors or pattern names and the gene loci postulated by Little are included where possible. Molecular studies are showing that Little was usually correct in his hypotheses, but not always.

"Many people read a more recent book by Malcolm B. Willis, Genetics of the Dog, Howell Book House, New York. 1989. His terminology is different for several alleles than that of Little. This leads to some real confusion for people who try to read several books or webpages designed by people who have read some of these books. All 3 of these books are out of print so they are difficult to purchase, but try your local library. There is a chapter in a book called The Genetics of the Dog edited by A. Ruvinsky & J. Sampson, CABI Publishing but sold through Oxford in North America, which contains a chapter by Philip Sponenberg and Max Rothschild on coat color. This book is still for sale by order at orders@oup-usas.org.

None of these books contain DNA studies however. All are based on hypothesized alleles at hypothesized loci to fit data obtained from coat colors and patterns of dogs from various breeds and litters. DNA research has shown that there are more genes involved than those hypothesized by these authors and that the actual number of alleles at genes they discuss is more for some genes and fewer for other genes. An invited review paper on the DNA research on the genes known to be involved in coat color was published December 1, 2007 in Animal Genetics, with the photo page shown above.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.html

I was quite surprised to see that there appears to be no dominent Ay according to this author. 

Ok.....again...why not buy books on the subjects?
I just added a couple that you posted to my list of must reads......

That's pretty much what I said luv, agouti is the locus or the series of alleles into which it fits.

aw is "wolf grey" sable, not "agouti".