Czech Dog - Page 2

Elkoorr
you have point. But I am talking about good Czech dogs. Every line can produce "piece of shit" dog and I would call it piece of shit  dog from Czech.  As far as Kaso and Din goes at least you are consistent. So if according to you Kaso is not Czech then Titus is not Czech either.  Now those are fighting words:)! That is thinking of the purists who believe in purity of  Czech or other lines based on pedigree. Czech dogs are not a result of simplistic looking on the pedigree and counting Czech dogs there ! Yes that would led me too to worry about the future of Czech dogs which as you think are getting "diluted" by German Lines. However such purist  philosophy would lead to narrowing of genetic pool and degeneration and destruction of the line which you seem to like. I am against breeders who insist that their line MUST be pure Czech lines as far back as possible. That leads to destruction by degeneration. Do you know that z Pohrnaicni straze line was started by 5-7 stud dogs. I insist on saying that the breeding of "Czech" dogs is a matter of culture and subsequent philosophy.  There are in Czech many who after fall of Iron curtain in new discovered freedom were anxious to see Germany and compete there. That led to interest in 'SPORT" and "SHOW DOGS"  and breeding of such. And if it is done with disregard to the old spirit of  "Old Style Czech WORKING dogs spirit" then yes this is diluting "Old Style Czech Lines" . And  it is happening quite a bit. But there is following of people who are preserving the spirit , philosophy based on old style culture who breed "proper" type of such dogs.
It is a struggle which is conducted by me  here in USA ( like by writing here on PDB and breeding such dogs) and Jiri in Czech  and others often geriatric breeders who remember the old dogs . Jiri is a Judge and has other important functions  in Czech breeding effort which enables him to  promote the spirit (here is that word again) of GS dogs and we have quite a following. If you like these type of dogs you need to insist on them when purchasing GSD in Czech lands. Vote with the $$$$. That is what saved the z Pohranicni straze and DDR military dogs and  that is what will save them again. Reject sport prey driven dogs and show dogs and insist on WORKING DOGS. Dogs which I have described in the spirit in  my first post here. Rugged dog in health and spirit, clear headed, and not extreme but balanced and capable of any work put in form of it if trained properly. Mainly I would like to stress courage under negative challenge and stress, discriminativness, territoriality, investigativness, intelligence and trainability and willingness to please and not willing to give up if threatened. 
But that should be the truth about any GSD from any part of world. USA, Czech, or Timbuktu. After all it is about GSD Right?
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Prager, we actual have more in common then it seems based on our discussion. I respect that you want to preserve a heritage that you so deeply cherish. My heritage is east german, in fact I lived only 15 miles away from the Czech border and am familiar with the dogs of that region. In the late 70s to mid 80s my mother used to trade some of our pups for "Goods" with the soldiers of the patrols in the region of the Erzgebirge. The Goods included Becherovka, sardines and those nice chocolate candies one could hang on a christmas tree :)
I am too trying to preserve a heritage, and am saddened in the downward breeding of the former east german dog. Just as you do, I know that this genepool is very limited in the attributes the linage was known for. One has to outcross, it would be highly ignorant to not do so. So many people that are now breeding east german dogs never experienced the true dogs of this heritage. Prager, we ourselfs are basically a dying breed....LOL It will be difficult to pass on the spirit of those dogs as no words can truly describe them.

I can see the points.  I still believe that a dog that is more than half "czech" posibly should not be considered "czech"

Most people who like a certain line would like to say that a dog that turns out nice is that line.

In the end a show dog is a show dog, a sport dog is a sport dogs and a good dog is a good dog....whatever name you put on it.

I just makes me feel a little sick to see someone strut around and being proud about having a "czech" dog when in reality it is no more than a sport dog.....if that good.

I guess people like to by different brands to be in style. 

Elkorr maybe we should start a club  called:  Czech/DDR  Old Style Dog  Society.
Yeah! Becherovka!,.. one good thing about Communism (which I otherwise hate) is that it produced awesome dogs.
Prager Hans
 http://www.alpinek9.com

one thing to keep in mind is that czech dogs as referred to as czech dogs in general where bred  with the sole purpose of being army/police dogs
that purpose is now traded in for others leading to different breedingchoices and selectionprocedures in general
we also see some   czech GSD people switching to breeding/training malinois to achieve the new set goals

I have to agree with Prager and say the Czech Dog ideal is an ideal based on attributes.... And funny enough the attributes Prager states are mostly to be found in the GSD elaborated standard on Courage and Hardness, and nobility and intelligence. Except with Prager and like minded people, he can elaborate ad infinitum, about those character attributes !! And this is a major problem. A lot of people don't know what they are looking for in the breed. Elkoor hit the nail on the head when he talks about people not knowing about the DDR dogs. When I interviewed Koos Hassing from Tiekerhook Kennels, he talked about how you can feel the dog's soul in a hold and bark in the blind. But we see a lot of judges giving full points for a nice rhythm and a bouncing behavior without touching the sleeve, with not so much regard for the 'soul' of this performance. So we reward the correct sport behavior even if the dog is merely barking for his toy, not showing any respect for an adversary in the blind and certainly not baiting him to move so he can compete with him for his possession- the sleeve. My Opinion is this, based on my research and observation. Intially, Czech was like a brand name that was spawned from the ideals of the Czech people for a dog that was a necessary tool for that time! tempered in the fires of a strong cultural heritage and social construct. It became a brand ( and I mean this with the utmost respect) the way Rolex is a brand. Because of the consistent production of working dogs that HAD to have been hard, balanced and show the courage and fight drive coupled with tolerance for stress and a certain calm strength, people could rely on . Now what has happened is I believe, that we find it strange if a dog from another location is used, or many dogs occur in the pedigree that are not originating from the Czech rep. And this is where I have to agree with Prager, because if the dogs used for breeding in the Czech rep, are found outside that area, but contribute to the production of this consistant working ability , then the product of that breeding is a "Czech Dog" according to people's idea of a "Czech Dog" One of the first things Jiri Novotny, former Director of the PS boarder patrol breeding station said to me was- they are all German Shepherd dogs- they all came from Horand! So the same way a dog born in the USA from a Bad Boll Bitch imported there in whelp from Zamp Thermados, for example, would be and American bred GSD, everyone would categorize those puppies at adulthood as Show Line and German Showline by extension! Because that breeder in the USA is not producing the "American style - lance bloodline, for example" GSD, he is producing the Show line GSD consistent with what people recognize as the show line "brand " from Germany! Then in the same way, the Czech GSD produced in the Czech rep is a culmination of breeding ethics and ideals about the working GSD that used to be popular to that region. And as Prager and others including Jiri Novotny have admitted, now because of the individual practices and no more communism we have all the individual expression and ideals in the breeding practices... So indeed communism or at least a system of this type of autonomous control, allows for a uniformity in the dogs bred. Without such autonomous control over breeding practices, individual breeders can cater to different needs. Like Dike1965 said the Javirs, Bombers and Vitos etc can be incorporated in a "Czech" kennel and the dogs will be from the Czech rep, but represent a different ideal that what people grew accustomed to expect from the beloved "Czech" brand of GSD! But by the same token, if a Czech kennel is using Nick and Yoschy bloodlines and some lesser known Police Dogs from Germany in their breeding I think the dogs produced by that kennel can still be categorized as Czech. After all you would be hard pressed as pointed out by Prager in the case of Titus, to find earlier bred, good,

 I agree with everyone on what a good dog is.....basically what you are saying should be called a "czech dog". 

I just dont agree that if it turns out to be a good dog regardless of bloodlines it should be called a "czech dog".

I know you have good intentions.....but going with the idea that bloodlines dont matter the name "czech dog" will not mean anything......everyone will be calling their lines "czech dogs".....the name will come to mean nothing.

agree with you there vith , but how does the outsider recognize if famous west sportdogs are used for above mentioned reasons or just for sport or sellingtool for pups

I would say baddy from jiri is a good example , quite a bit of westblood , but can be called a czech dog by above written rules , now Ive seen baddy work , siblings of him , his mother , a sister  of his mother   etc
but how does someone know , by looking on the ped and a picture that a dog is bred with these thoughts in mind or  for other reasons
some czech and slovak breeders produce very good sportdogs by using west.czech mixes  , but for a great sportdog I dont exlusively have to go to czech , but for the type of dog I like  , my best chances to find them are the old czech lines , now the more "sport "blood is put in , the lesser the chance is  I get what I like

as opposed to that there are a few west/czech mixes I like  , but most crosses are made with a sport/or even worst goal  in mind

Budweiser is a fine CZECH lager beer made in Czech with fine ingredients often from New Zealand and elsewhere. Very good beer. ( Take my word for it.)  There is a quality beer , with great  taste of it based on Czech culture.
On the other hand US Budweiser claims to be "finest lager"  beer with finest ingredients  ( some of them probably imported from Czech) yady yady yada,...and it is camel piss.
Same with the dogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budweiser
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Well said Prager. I can attest to the quality of Czech Bud!